And do you know how Rox.Kis knocked C9 out of Kiev? That's right, Vanguard Slardar. It's just biased to say "This item sucks." It's extremely good in some cases.
No. Oh wait, yes a scrub3kshit would agree with you.
Does drums give you the sustain to farm/tank creeps and actually regen back up instead of standing in the lane worrying about getting ganked cause you have 60% hp left due to not being able to regen back up? Mainly cause you have no passive regen.
Does drums give you tankiness to actually survive a gank? No. Drums give you a small chuck of HP, it's not even that much. Drums or not, you'd not survive that gank.
With Vanguard you can actaully contribute to the team, in fights or actually survive ganks. If you keep dying on heroes such as Spectre and Slardar you will fall behind quickly cause you have no ability to farm fast.
If you're a scumbag who says Vanguard is a bad item you better learn how DotA works.
No offense, just my 9 cents.
EDIT: Drums doesn't let you jungle either.
Vanguard is useless pro players are just going for the wrong builds, its not like they spent hours everyday thinking about this things, no, they are just dumb, xboct is a awful player who just started playing dota some months ago.
They need to watch that merlini video where he says that vanguard is a bad item, once those noobs learn from the best dota player out there who played a lot of pro games against top tier teams they will learn the best item builds.
Every fucking pro players who gets vanguard should be flamed hard, what a fucking bunch of idiots.
Like vanguard slardar is useless blink is ALWAYS ALWAYS better because blink is cost efficient and vanguard is not DUHHH
there is a difference between being 3k and being 3k trash. Understanding your own limitations and skill level is what a 3k player is. Convincing yourself that you know everything and that there is a huge conspiracy within valve to keep you at 3k is what makes someone 3k trash
@sampson
I have been going vanguard on spectre ever since its buff, and I have seen a full range of MMRs between 4k-5k criticize the build. I've even experienced people giving up in the game. "Spectre went vanguard, gg. just end".
it is a item that has its place within certain situations.(like alot of items in dota 2)
Yes, Vasile. No, Wink. You're incorrect. You don't understand the what the item does. Never heard of such an ignorant guy who thinks he know a lot, but doesn't understand a shit. Apparently you don't learn a lot in the ESP inhouses.
Owell, they're at average 3500 mmr as you told me earlier.
if icefrog didnt brake tranquils, i'd better make them and rush diffus\manta or radiance
but now i make vanguard
I am creating a NO-VANGUARD cult, if someone wants to join just contact me, our objective is to flame every player who builds vanguard and to teach bad pro player the true way of the master merlini and his insane logic.
Every non-believer shall BURN.
Well I just built it in my last 2 slardar matches in it worked great.
Slardar doesn't need damage items, his ult grants such a ridiculous increase in dmg when coupled with physical dmg from bashes and crush. All you really need is to stay alive to let the bashes do the work. Blink is still a really awesome item but sprint alone is pretty good in lane. Vanguard lets you stay in lane forever. I strongly dislike armlet cus slardar has no good way to regen that lost hp. My preferred slardar build is stout shield, brown boots, ring of health to stay in lane, treads, vanguard, then either bkb of blink depending on if I need a bkb against their team. Usually I do.
Wink is an idiot imho. Kid thinks he owns the forums. Get outa here rand. Clearly these are mels.
Vanguard actually is an even better item when AHEAD. It lets you push an advantage by making it very difficult for enemies to focus you down, especially when most heroes still have level 1 ultimates early in the game.
If I am playing from behind I would actually rather get drums personally.
![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
Can't tell if Melody is sarcastic or not, but I agree in some degree.
Totally agree with Zenoth. Wink, talk with experienced people before you start bullshitting with ur 3k speak.
@ artemis
Yes bobs burgers FTW! XD I gotta admit I didn't care for the show at first, but it grew on me.
I don't get why you guys hate vanguard so much, -40 dmg block for 80% of the time... health regen and health pool. If you totally hate survivability, health regen and dmg block then this item is not for you.
If you like those things, then you probably want the item. Yes Agreed a early vanguard on her as zenoth pointed out is great when you're ahead. Whats better than staying on top, with a lot more health and regen and block? I mean if you can get more dps items great, but if you just melt away real fast, then you lose your advantage.
Would I get vanguard against 4 or 5 nukers on the opposite team? No.
Would I get vanguard with 3 to 5 dps heros on the other team? Yes.
It's all situational folks.... sheesh.
You can't just do some cookie cutter build and expect 100% wins and you have to be flexible in your builds and know what the other team. I shouldn't buy a hood of defiance on my centaur if the other team has 1 nuke, I should probably do a vanguard instead if they are all dps.
Pull your heads out of your asses god damn people.
Yeah was sarcasm. I was just posting off topic shit.
Vanguard is only viable if you are forced to provide early game presence. If you are going to stay and farm in lane, dont get it. If you want to contribute to a fight, take vanguard. There's nothing wrong with the item. You just have to get it early if you want it, and should apply pressure because of that.
@ Mark
I feel the same way with slardar and the armlet. Try a mask of madness sometime on him and the armlet and you may like it more. Nothing like getting a bunch of fast bashes with MoM turned on with armlet. Its silly.
Yeah i just read the last comment from the original poster...
"Does anyone agree with me that Vanguard is a useless item in 99% cases(unless they have broodmother or something)?"
WTF? No.
I'm going to be frank. I feel the idea that spectre needs items that give her and her illusions direct damage (mana burn, radiance burn) is a myth. I prefer skadi slow over mana burn usually (situational; goes through bkb, great against any carry) and I prefer getting survival items over damage items. Desolate does hundreds of pure damage a second with manta and attack speed. And if you hypothesize that a team will move in a small ball to avoid desolate damage, then your team composition must have zero aoe stuns/cc/etc. In that case, I'd build radiance/mana burn/etc.
My usual build:
First: phase (or pt), vanguard, drums.
This is core and almost not situational at all. Drums is always good. Move speed, hp, drum charges. Vanguard is always good. HP regen which helps stay out in the field longer farming, insane survivability (level 9 spectre can just stand and tank towers no problem). Once you have this core, you can usually ult right into battles and make any 3 v 2 gank or whatever into a win with Spectre (you) getting free gold/levels. That's one place I differ from the pro builds I see. They usually max dagger first. I usually max desolate first. I feel it is just insanely powerful. 1 point into each, max desolate, max dagger, max dispersion.
next big item: Manta
This item is insane with spectre. It gives attack speed, move speed and HP to you and your illusions. But what's more, it gives you two other illusions. Let's say there is a low level CM, and you know she is alone due to wards. Ult in, hit manta, dagger, and she's dead. In a team fight, ult in, teleport next to ANY hero that desolate will work on that doesn't have a blink or escape, dagger, manta, and he's dead. Afterward, just run in and kill anyone else with you and your two illusions. It's just insane.
Situational next items: Butterfly, skadi, purge stick lvl 2, heart
Butterfly is obvious - you get it when they have right click dpsers aplenty and low risk of getting an MKB very soon.
Skadi - you get it if you need more HP to survive magic dps but also if they have right click dpser, especially if they tend to get BKB or have one. Slows from the skadi go through BKB, which is huge. purge stick, on the other hand, does nothing to a bkb carry that is raping everyone.
Purge stick lvl 2 - I'd get this if you know you're plenty strong to survive and they have no BKB heroes. Otherwise, I prefer Skadi. Purge stick is very situational for Spectre IMO. You may also get this if they have warlock golems, etc.
Heart - I prefer Skadi over heart in almost all situations. But if they have a lot of CC (sheeps etc.), you may get skadi AND heart with heart replacing the butter.
A final note about Radiance, its popularity in pro games, and why you should generally avoid it in pubs:
The item is super fantastic if you have free farm to get it quickly (15-20 minutes) and then have enough time to use it to flash farm your survival items. But in pubs, sometimes your teammates don't TP to help you while the other team is very ganky due to their understanding that many times, people are not very helpful to their carries. If you are rushing radiance, you are being risky. You need to hold 3.8k gold all at one time (no small parts to buy to alleviate the risk of losing a lot of gold), and you have fewer items from the onset that help you survive. The surer thing, far less risky and still devastating, is to do my build on average. Only go for radiance if you feel the opponents don't have much gank and you feel you can farm safely and efficiently. Even in games where I do radiance, I get vanguard and PT first for survivability before going down the long road toward radiance. A naked radiance is even riskier, surely only possible against noobs or with pros protecting you. Just keep that in mind.
@caveman I may try that if I am the main carry. Last couple games well one we had 5 carries and other had clinkz and faceless void so I was going for utility/tank.
@ Mark
Yeah if you're the main carry yeah do that. Utility/tank is my preferred way but I don't usually get armlet without a life leech item though on him. Doesn't make a bit of sense to me OR without a heart, but i mean thats a tough road to climb when you have to get a blink dagger anyways. I mean you don't have to get a blink dagger.... but damn he feels so naked without one.
Vanguard on slardar is good cause of early diving and to mitigate the cost of sprint. Mek on bristle is good but he can't spare a lot of mana for Mek, better to let someone else build it. Vanguard on spectre is good to help minimize lane harass and keep you in lane to farm because of early ring of health and latter health regen.
Just because you saw one video from merlini saying it's bad doesn't mean it's bad.
Vanguard is not useless, but on Slardar, ARMLET > VANGUARD.
Slardar with a vanguard is crap, and I see it too often.
Vanguard helps Spectre to actually do shit in a teamfight. I think its also a okay pickup for Anti-Mage.
I played a potato game not so while ago with a huskar with 4 vanguards, it was fucking retarded! XD
If you want a Vanguard on a range hero go for Mekanism instead. It gives more survivability if you're ranged.
This is nice for Viper, Bat and maybe even Razor. (never tried on razor)
@MADS
I had a friend who made Vanguard + Hood of Defiance on every fucking hero... EVERY
And still end up feeding, of course.
Caveman I know what you mean, trying to build blink and bkb leaves little room for other items. I'll get to end of games and be like man I have nothing like these two:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/609277045
http://dotabuff.com/matches/609297850
I have more farm than our sniper and void yet if you glance at items, seems like I'm a scrub. Partly cus in second game I only got hyperstone, didn't finish ac, that would've made my dps shoot through the roof. But again people fail to realize slardar bashes, ult and his sprint add so much dmg, he doesn't need many +dmg items to rock people. I'd actually really like to try a halberd on him (45 total dmg? hp and dodge? YES!) or a sange and yasha (attack speed, dmg, move speed?! HELL YES) but bkb/blink so core it's hard to find the farm.
Narandza, why do you even talk about Vanguard when you clearly have no clue about what you're talking about?
@Vandal, question about desolate, does the enemy hero need a hero within 325 feet or will creeps work too? I'm assuming it's another hero.
Any unit within the range of Desolate to work.
If you have manta and nobody is nearby the guy you target he dies within seconds.
Hmm so desolate is basically for pickoffs only? So hug creeps if I am vs spectre? Good to know.
I tried a few spectre games, did not go so well. My farm wasn't nearly good enough, coupled with some retarded teammates, just couldn't do it.
However I did really enjoy the vanguard build. You are right, keeps you in lane forever, lets you jungle farm even if your lanes are pushed.
The one thing is, with just treads and vanguard I feel like my dmg is pretty pathetic. Then manta, decent dmg upgrade but still not hitting nearly as hard as I want unless desolate is active. Although I supposed in team fights surviving and doing dispersion dmg is more important.
I need to figure out how to do pickoffs better and score some better teammates and I think I'll be fine. Both games mid got rolled, one game no disablers whatsoever and a TA with 250gpm, one game had supports afk half the game. Considering the circumstances I'm not too disappointed. Going to stick with vanguard for now, situationally decide on diffusal vs manta/skadi rush.
@ Mark
Best farm is if you're getting heavily babysat on safelane by 2 people versus 1 on a 3 star carry IMO. Again my opinion but for characters like anti mage or spectre they seem to be ineffective at farming their lane without 2 people harassing the other heros/denying your creeps and healing you.
Yep, the one game was against an offlane mirana. I got whatever I wanted early, had great farm, we threw the game on a couple bad dives by me and a really bad rosh decision to wipe. And their late game was just better cus we had all carries, no team disables, a TA with 250gpm and a SB who built aghs over AC or something useful lol.
Next game my bane who was supposed to be helping me went afk for 10 minutes leaving me solo vs tusk. Not too terrible, but then mid bloodseeker got rolled by pudge and pudge started ganking bottom. Snowball -> hooks, not good.
Next game my vengeful spirit support was kinda braindead. Axe cut our lane with CM backup. They were pretty low but our mid, again bloodseeker, wouldn't rotate and ended up getting killed by their puck mid. Then he builds trash items, force staff first and built radiance 40 mins into the game lol.
All those games were winnable if I'd played better but I'm not that great with spec yet. However your point is well taken, spec doesn't work that well against aggressive lanes like CM + axe or an out of control ganking mid with no rotations.
@ Mark
Sounds like some bad BS mid. U typically do well as BS unless I get a mega feeder in top/bottom lanes. I had riki at lvl 12 when I was 9 mid due to an ES/razor combo bottom feeding riki:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/612218140 By the time I realized he was balling out of control, I couldn't afford any items to shut him down, I ended up buying sentries/dust due to ES or anyone else not buying them, but when I plopped them down, riki was visibile a few times, then they decided to focus other people in the teamfight and not riki........
IDK why BS people build a push stick so fucking stupid. "OH IT ENHANCES YOUR ULT" fuck you man you are not helping your team out late game with the fucking push stick. If you need it so bad have your support build a push stick instead of a mek or something fuck tard. Stupidest build for BS ever makes me so mad.
@ Skull Servant.
Yeah of course people are still getting butthurt over vanguard or no vanguard. Either people realize that defense is good in some situations, and the others think glass cannon DPS is the way to go. All situational but no one can seem to agree on this lol...
I've just passed by, and saw someone flaming Merlini's logic... DO you really think you can outlogic Merlini in this game?
He pointed a really good pros and cons to so much heroes, abilities, item choises, and so on.
He said mek was better than vanguard. Tell me it isn't. TELL ME PROS BUY MORE VANGUARD THAN MEK. Not true right?
Where have u been when EVERYBODY flamed vanguard to be a useless item. That was a long period, so long so i forgot even that vanguard as an item even existed. It now got buffed, the meta changed, and all of a sudden it was a good item right!?
At first earth spirit was OP, he got nerfed, all of a sudden ember was better?
At first AA sucked ass, he only got a fucking unreliable ultimate, now he is a fucking beast 100% pick/ban material?
At first Naga carry was awful (not taking HISTORY to consider), than it is a great carry hero when u can farm whole map?
At first midas was "bad", someone built it on CM and it become VERY good for every hero (supports mainly, till then midas on supports were like NAAAh, retard, also for a carry buying it pass the 7 minute mark was getting flamed), and the recipe changed for 150 gold and now all of a sudden its not that good of an item as it was?
NONONO, its just the way dota changes, everything changes which makes the game more interesting. Pro players tend to expiriment, but it seems that its not enough, becouse very other tactics wait to be unrevealed, that some may be using them in pub, and being flamed becouse they are "bad".
So if you are really into this game, you won't flame someone who pointed detaly pointed why mek was better than a vanguard (back when mek was a 100% game buy material)
კომენტარის დასაწერად გაიარეთ ავტორიზაცია.
Why do even some pro player go for shitty itembuild like VANGUARD on heroes who need other core items?
On spectre I find it to be useless, cuz you can get drums instead, on slardar it delays your blink dagger/armlet, on bristleback you can get mek, and the list goes on.
Does anyone agree with me that Vanguard is a useless item in 99% cases(unless they have broodmother or something)?