Every item has its time and place. Vanguard is naturally an early-game item that helps with survivability. If you're up against a team of gankers that bonus regen and damage block can easily save your life time and time again (though this is just one example).
Lets face it guys.. dota 2 is not like math equation where 2+2 always equals 4. This differs as players with different play styles who are playing the game of dota 2. I heard that ember spirit was no played that much but as pro gamers started to "master" how to use ember spirit, it got famous and people like us copied "their" play style. Its quite stupid saying wether get vanguard or not.... it would give u instant protection when u need it if u are behind or need that clutch moments. Other than that .. its your fucking choice!!!
Thats why there are so many builds for same hero in dota 2, because heroes are versatile!!!!!!!!!! Feels like I'm watching a Gr. 2 argument over chicken or an egg? whether u pick egg or chicken there are going to be arguments against it... everyones different, why cant we just accept that fact? maybe well never blame people when we are losing and no reporting will be needed.
From a guy who wants peaceful dotabuff.com :) I also dont know whats wrong with invoker pickers... I am that invoker player with decent records and I chose him because we all want to be show off and have a good time don't we? sometimes we all forget the point of playing a game and get overwhelmed by the stats
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion even if it's wrong.
Seriously some people think that being entitled to an opinion means no one can ever say they are wrong. There is such a thing as better and best and right and wrong in this fucked up world. Just cus you think something is a certain way doesn't make it true.
Uh that's exactly what I said? You are entitled to your own opinion but that doesn't mean you are right (or wrong).
In this case OP is wrong, vanguard is not a crap item. It's also not a 100% core item either, but he's wrong no matter what his opinion of it so saying dude that's my opinion as some kind of out is lame.
And yes, dota knowledge is no substitute for reflexes and game awareness.
In the last few months I've been constantly playing with stacks, and I have a support player on my lane who doesn't let the enemy offlaner to harass, so I never need vanguard, unless they go agro trilane, in which case I go for a PMS and a casual vita booster(later HoT). This worked out in most of my matches, but I never play spectre in solo Q
^and i could say "Soo today in the match xx vs. xx we saw what happens when you dont go vanguard on slardar. it was just brutal", your argument is literally invalid
They didn't care about me, but I could still contribute in key fights cause I had Vanguard. I escaped lot of ganks.
There is no way I'd get a 20min radiance without escaping those ganks, also I could farm freely without being scared of ganks or being low hp cause I had the regen and block from Vanguard.
Wink, you're brining a lot of bad rep on ESP with your shittalk. Unexperienced, but still think he's good. ESP good, doesnt even know what items are good on x hero.
Wow anonymous is so anonymous, i highly doubt thats dangdang.
The thing with item changes and general meta changes is that people try things. When BM got a big buff around TI2, he was picked so often, but he rarely did anything that other offlaners/mids couldnt do, but he was still picked. Now how often do you see BM? He fits very well in the meta, but people tried him to death and realized he just isnt as reliable as other heroes. DK was picked for mid SOOOO often, and now how often is he ever picked? just because you see pros trying something out a lot right now, it doesnt mean its always working.
"just because you see pros trying something out a lot right now, it doesnt mean its always working."
Of course when something works 100% of the time or close to that, the item/hero gets nerfed, just look at Wisp.
Seriously, that statement you put...it doesn't prove or even disprove ANYTHING. It's just a basic fucking fact, items and heroes are NOT supposed to always work when you go for them.
Exactly, so why is he saying that because they won a game with vanguard, vanguard is good? it doesnt apply to every game that if you get vanguard you will make a bloody mess on the enemy base. People win with shadowblade riki, does that make it good on riki?
i don't agree with using the "the pros do it so it must be right", or "majority of people think this, therefore it must be true"
though that doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong all the time either, not a black and white situation
The item that works best for the situation that also syncs w/ your hero is the most optimal, no?
I've never gone shadow blade on void, though I firmly believe that one of the games I won was due to me buying that item and picking off heroes that could disable me from quite a far distance.
I've never gone hood on spectre, though I sort of believe I needed the magic resistance against a heavy spell team, seeing as how I died alone to a support lion that managed to get a 15 min dagon. I maxed dispersion and went HP and survivability specifically for that game. Maybe I could be wrong, but I did manage to come back from this one too.
But under normal circumstances I wouldn't ever really go for these items on those heroes.
I don't think any item can be compared to another because they're used for different purposes and different situations.
also i think the key element thats missing here is how well damage block synchronizes with spectre (damage block-dispersion interaction) which gives spectre a lot more potency in the early-mid game as well as making him as tanky as most of the heroes that are designed to be put on the front line at that time of the game. seeing as in most decent games you get ganked at least a few times on the way to radiance/whatever ur building (gl with 15-20 minutes of uncontested freefarm) vanguard offers by far the most durability on the hero, hence least potential to be ganked.
obviously drums are good for other things but its stupid to call an item bad and never worth buying on any hero.
Only in carries would that seriously apply, and it shows very clearly in your PA, AM, Juggernaut, and Sniper scores that lower KDA is accompanied by higher winrate.
Fit into what? Your argument was that people that have high kda's because they spend time farming and not helping their team.
And you not playing carries is your excuse for not having good stats with them, yet you still seem to think you understand how to play them well (Spectre)
I don't play carry therefore I have never played with a carry on my team? I don't have to be the carry to see that when my carry is sitting in the jungle for 15 minutes instead of helping his desperate team, we lose, but he is 5-1-0.
Congrats to that carry for 5.0 KDA, totally team's fault amiright?
You seem to think you understand playing carries well enough to say vanguard sucks on spectre, yet you have bad performances playing carries which you explain by saying you don't play them.
And also, by everything you said so far, you'd have to assume that I play with my team with every other carry EXCEPT spectre...thus the high kda on him.
That's right, Spectre's the ONLY hero that I for some reason (keeping in mind he has the best ability to join teamfights anywhere/anytime) I just afk farm all game.
Literally your only argument is I don't play carry while you disregard the numbers staring you in the face that show how you win more games when you actively help your team instead of farming with your precious vanguard, and your weaver argument is invalid because 99% of the time weaver is not sitting in the safe lane farming with supports babysitting him until they leave to 4v5 without him.
If you actually join teamfights as a carry, your KD will be lower but your game impact will be bigger. Clearly your Spectre is either immortal, the enemy team is retarded, or you are farming when you should be fighting.
Though it would make more sense that higher KDA is generally better, since it's including assists as well.
Back in Dota 1, where majority of people were of similar skill level to roughly 2kish mmr, I did average 10+K/2-3D/11+A
Should've been better but eh, still flooded with maphack.
You can't really have a high KDA without contributing to teamfights unless you play spectre/np or something like that all the time where you can purposely (falsely) showcase your stats by timing your ult before team kills or whatever have you.
If you were really OCD and keen on finding out a more accurate representation then you'd just have to look at every single match and average out all the stats you can see, i.e. HeroDamage, HeroHealing, etc
That can tell you whether or not the KDA representation is precise... well at least more so than just the initial numbers.
i looked at this dudes spectre games and no wonder he loses so many of them
he rushes vanguard, gets vlads, and then goes diffusal + AC
He claims to be such a good carry player yet he cant even figure out the nearly cookie cutter build of spectre? It's almost as easy as building antimage... He doesn't go manta, heart is the last thing on his mind, god this is depressing to look at...
I'm done talking to this pleb, the dunning kruger is strong with this one
Sorry you can't understand some basic logic. Your argument is I only have a higher kda with spectre because I sit and farm with him, meanwhile, with EVERY other hero I don't. So that would have to entail that I have some special behavior while playing Spectre, the hero I'd be LEAST likely to not help teamfight because of haunt. But contrary to all reason, you think this conclusion follows just to support your random hypothesis that people get high kda's from not playing with their team.
Guess what, if you actually made it past high school, you'd realize your entire argument is some blatant confirmation bias.
And it doesn't matter what fucking lane weaver is in you idiot. He's still a carry that farms. He's not a ganker, he's not a support, he's not an initiator. He's a carry and he needs farm.
And this:
"You seem to think you understand playing carries well enough to say vanguard sucks on spectre, yet you have bad performances playing carries which you explain by saying you don't play them. "
Isn't that hard of an argument to understand. If you don't get it, there's literally no way I can dumb it down further for you.
@Relax I've looked at your profile and itembuilds and they look like shit.
If I'd count your logic, then you still suck, I'm a carry player and I've got better both kdas and winrate at your beloved carries.( 1 or 2 exceptions)
Also, if you wanna bash my 49%overall winrate, it's because I came to dota2 from Garena, server on which I got used to play only for myself, not for my team, and for over a year I had 45%winrate BUT GOOD KDAS like you.
Also, I consider the way I was playing(letting all my tean die for me to get some kills as the shittest thing possible in Dota. And I see that you're playing just like that:D
no idea why this turned into a fucking e-peen thread.
@relax your item builds are simply horrible. You would have to be brain dead to get a low KDA with spectre regardless of whether you are doing well or not - dispersion guarantees an assist and Haunt guarantees kill contribution.
@Wink
why not just look at the bigger picture? Slardar has picked up Vanguard 43 times competitively, with a 54% win rate. His winrate on average is higher when he gets Vanguard before Blink. It's not like it's been picked up 4-5 times or something. No one is saying Vanguard is literally the best item, but in plenty of situations it does get alot of work done. And this is reflected in pro matches.
Sorry if you're too trash to play with those item builds. Your problem not mine.
@Vasile
So what you're saying is your still trash and can't learn to play better? Sorry, I don't play like you because I'm not bad.
@Zenoth
That would explain why mine is higher than you over many more games, which is harder to pull off because that means you have be consistent over time (simple logic there). Nice 42% winrate with spectre too. Your precious item build is doing you wonders.
^so good
^
Mad because he is wrong about vanguard. GG fail post.
Dude, that's my opinion:D
@KORD1G
+ to all you said and here I still sit waiting for people to start picking Sky Wrath mid competativly, when will that meta come :(
i buy vanguard on am
Every item has its time and place. Vanguard is naturally an early-game item that helps with survivability. If you're up against a team of gankers that bonus regen and damage block can easily save your life time and time again (though this is just one example).
Lets face it guys.. dota 2 is not like math equation where 2+2 always equals 4. This differs as players with different play styles who are playing the game of dota 2. I heard that ember spirit was no played that much but as pro gamers started to "master" how to use ember spirit, it got famous and people like us copied "their" play style. Its quite stupid saying wether get vanguard or not.... it would give u instant protection when u need it if u are behind or need that clutch moments. Other than that .. its your fucking choice!!!
Thats why there are so many builds for same hero in dota 2, because heroes are versatile!!!!!!!!!! Feels like I'm watching a Gr. 2 argument over chicken or an egg? whether u pick egg or chicken there are going to be arguments against it... everyones different, why cant we just accept that fact? maybe well never blame people when we are losing and no reporting will be needed.
From a guy who wants peaceful dotabuff.com :) I also dont know whats wrong with invoker pickers... I am that invoker player with decent records and I chose him because we all want to be show off and have a good time don't we? sometimes we all forget the point of playing a game and get overwhelmed by the stats
"Dude, that's my opinion:D"
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion even if it's wrong.
Seriously some people think that being entitled to an opinion means no one can ever say they are wrong. There is such a thing as better and best and right and wrong in this fucked up world. Just cus you think something is a certain way doesn't make it true.
^
sometimes
you can still be entitled to your opinion and be right or wrong
however i do agree that way 2 many people use "game knowledge" as the major factor of determining skill
Uh that's exactly what I said? You are entitled to your own opinion but that doesn't mean you are right (or wrong).
In this case OP is wrong, vanguard is not a crap item. It's also not a 100% core item either, but he's wrong no matter what his opinion of it so saying dude that's my opinion as some kind of out is lame.
And yes, dota knowledge is no substitute for reflexes and game awareness.
In the last few months I've been constantly playing with stacks, and I have a support player on my lane who doesn't let the enemy offlaner to harass, so I never need vanguard, unless they go agro trilane, in which case I go for a PMS and a casual vita booster(later HoT). This worked out in most of my matches, but I never play spectre in solo Q
^Vasile knows whats up
Don't waste 2250 gold on a shitty item
Soo today in the match IG vs Rox.kis we saw what happens when you go vanguard on slardar. It was just brutal.
^and i could say "Soo today in the match xx vs. xx we saw what happens when you dont go vanguard on slardar. it was just brutal", your argument is literally invalid
Actually his argument is valid, if it was a AWFUL item they would NEVER get it
^even pros build stupid items, xboct went blademail spectre and dendi went radiance invoker (both won games)
blademail on Spectre is legit. Blademail and Vangaurd is not the same item.
I brought the team back into the game after stupid 5man push fever. http://dotabuff.com/matches/615040342
They didn't care about me, but I could still contribute in key fights cause I had Vanguard. I escaped lot of ganks.
There is no way I'd get a 20min radiance without escaping those ganks, also I could farm freely without being scared of ganks or being low hp cause I had the regen and block from Vanguard.
Wink, you're brining a lot of bad rep on ESP with your shittalk. Unexperienced, but still think he's good. ESP good, doesnt even know what items are good on x hero.
damm they must be really dumb to get stupid items in every fucking game
Do you see xboct building blademail on spctre so much now a days ? do you see dendi going radiance on invoker in at least 30 % if his games ?
or are you going to deny that they are going vanguard slardar and vanguard spectre a lot now a days ? are you going to deny that ?
Dorkly, ignore Wink. Just an average trashcan who thinks he's very good. Most people lacks execution, but got knowledge. I think Wink lacks both.
jesus why people so mad
no need to flame dude he is just saying his opinion about the item
Wow anonymous is so anonymous, i highly doubt thats dangdang.
The thing with item changes and general meta changes is that people try things. When BM got a big buff around TI2, he was picked so often, but he rarely did anything that other offlaners/mids couldnt do, but he was still picked. Now how often do you see BM? He fits very well in the meta, but people tried him to death and realized he just isnt as reliable as other heroes. DK was picked for mid SOOOO often, and now how often is he ever picked? just because you see pros trying something out a lot right now, it doesnt mean its always working.
"just because you see pros trying something out a lot right now, it doesnt mean its always working."
Of course when something works 100% of the time or close to that, the item/hero gets nerfed, just look at Wisp.
Seriously, that statement you put...it doesn't prove or even disprove ANYTHING. It's just a basic fucking fact, items and heroes are NOT supposed to always work when you go for them.
Exactly, so why is he saying that because they won a game with vanguard, vanguard is good? it doesnt apply to every game that if you get vanguard you will make a bloody mess on the enemy base. People win with shadowblade riki, does that make it good on riki?
i don't agree with using the "the pros do it so it must be right", or "majority of people think this, therefore it must be true"
though that doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong all the time either, not a black and white situation
The item that works best for the situation that also syncs w/ your hero is the most optimal, no?
I've never gone shadow blade on void, though I firmly believe that one of the games I won was due to me buying that item and picking off heroes that could disable me from quite a far distance.
I've never gone hood on spectre, though I sort of believe I needed the magic resistance against a heavy spell team, seeing as how I died alone to a support lion that managed to get a 15 min dagon. I maxed dispersion and went HP and survivability specifically for that game. Maybe I could be wrong, but I did manage to come back from this one too.
But under normal circumstances I wouldn't ever really go for these items on those heroes.
I don't think any item can be compared to another because they're used for different purposes and different situations.
adickshun just got a whole glob of my respect :o
@wink you can use the same logic for drums too
also i think the key element thats missing here is how well damage block synchronizes with spectre (damage block-dispersion interaction) which gives spectre a lot more potency in the early-mid game as well as making him as tanky as most of the heroes that are designed to be put on the front line at that time of the game. seeing as in most decent games you get ganked at least a few times on the way to radiance/whatever ur building (gl with 15-20 minutes of uncontested freefarm) vanguard offers by far the most durability on the hero, hence least potential to be ganked.
obviously drums are good for other things but its stupid to call an item bad and never worth buying on any hero.
I've been going Vanguard on Spectre since Dota 1
Ballin'
ballin a 49% winratio too
with a 4.38 kda, which means losses were most probably more due to whatever team i was on than me
gg
or youre just farming while your team loses fights instead of helping them with your godly vanguard...
because i said cs and not kda amrite?
how to get high kda on any hero in 3 easy steps:
1. Farm
2. Let your team die 4v5 while you farm
3. Lose game
so then every hero i have a high kda on, i should have a proportionally lower winrate
good logic
Only in carries would that seriously apply, and it shows very clearly in your PA, AM, Juggernaut, and Sniper scores that lower KDA is accompanied by higher winrate.
Which are miles ahead of your PA and AM winrates (kda as well) lmfao
try again
I dont even play carries, I'm an offlane/support player who occasionally takes Invoker mid. When was my last PA game? When was my last AM game?
Meanwhile PL is sitting at 58% and 4.25, and Weaver is at 42% with 3.14 (and Void is similar).
Stop trying to find a correlation, because there isn't one.
Just relax, I'm better at Spectre than you with my vanguard.
Weaver is an offlane carry, rarely put as 1 role, how does he even fit into this?
Fit into what? Your argument was that people that have high kda's because they spend time farming and not helping their team.
And you not playing carries is your excuse for not having good stats with them, yet you still seem to think you understand how to play them well (Spectre)
I don't play carry therefore I have never played with a carry on my team? I don't have to be the carry to see that when my carry is sitting in the jungle for 15 minutes instead of helping his desperate team, we lose, but he is 5-1-0.
Congrats to that carry for 5.0 KDA, totally team's fault amiright?
What? The two lines are separate points.
You seem to think you understand playing carries well enough to say vanguard sucks on spectre, yet you have bad performances playing carries which you explain by saying you don't play them.
That's irony.
And also, by everything you said so far, you'd have to assume that I play with my team with every other carry EXCEPT spectre...thus the high kda on him.
That's right, Spectre's the ONLY hero that I for some reason (keeping in mind he has the best ability to join teamfights anywhere/anytime) I just afk farm all game.
lmfao
Literally your only argument is I don't play carry while you disregard the numbers staring you in the face that show how you win more games when you actively help your team instead of farming with your precious vanguard, and your weaver argument is invalid because 99% of the time weaver is not sitting in the safe lane farming with supports babysitting him until they leave to 4v5 without him.
If you actually join teamfights as a carry, your KD will be lower but your game impact will be bigger. Clearly your Spectre is either immortal, the enemy team is retarded, or you are farming when you should be fighting.
Though it would make more sense that higher KDA is generally better, since it's including assists as well.
Back in Dota 1, where majority of people were of similar skill level to roughly 2kish mmr, I did average 10+K/2-3D/11+A
Should've been better but eh, still flooded with maphack.
You can't really have a high KDA without contributing to teamfights unless you play spectre/np or something like that all the time where you can purposely (falsely) showcase your stats by timing your ult before team kills or whatever have you.
If you were really OCD and keen on finding out a more accurate representation then you'd just have to look at every single match and average out all the stats you can see, i.e. HeroDamage, HeroHealing, etc
That can tell you whether or not the KDA representation is precise... well at least more so than just the initial numbers.
i looked at this dudes spectre games and no wonder he loses so many of them
he rushes vanguard, gets vlads, and then goes diffusal + AC
He claims to be such a good carry player yet he cant even figure out the nearly cookie cutter build of spectre? It's almost as easy as building antimage... He doesn't go manta, heart is the last thing on his mind, god this is depressing to look at...
I'm done talking to this pleb, the dunning kruger is strong with this one
Sorry you can't understand some basic logic. Your argument is I only have a higher kda with spectre because I sit and farm with him, meanwhile, with EVERY other hero I don't. So that would have to entail that I have some special behavior while playing Spectre, the hero I'd be LEAST likely to not help teamfight because of haunt. But contrary to all reason, you think this conclusion follows just to support your random hypothesis that people get high kda's from not playing with their team.
Guess what, if you actually made it past high school, you'd realize your entire argument is some blatant confirmation bias.
And it doesn't matter what fucking lane weaver is in you idiot. He's still a carry that farms. He's not a ganker, he's not a support, he's not an initiator. He's a carry and he needs farm.
And this:
"You seem to think you understand playing carries well enough to say vanguard sucks on spectre, yet you have bad performances playing carries which you explain by saying you don't play them. "
Isn't that hard of an argument to understand. If you don't get it, there's literally no way I can dumb it down further for you.
@Relax I've looked at your profile and itembuilds and they look like shit.
If I'd count your logic, then you still suck, I'm a carry player and I've got better both kdas and winrate at your beloved carries.( 1 or 2 exceptions)
Also, if you wanna bash my 49%overall winrate, it's because I came to dota2 from Garena, server on which I got used to play only for myself, not for my team, and for over a year I had 45%winrate BUT GOOD KDAS like you.
Also, I consider the way I was playing(letting all my tean die for me to get some kills as the shittest thing possible in Dota. And I see that you're playing just like that:D
no idea why this turned into a fucking e-peen thread.
@relax your item builds are simply horrible. You would have to be brain dead to get a low KDA with spectre regardless of whether you are doing well or not - dispersion guarantees an assist and Haunt guarantees kill contribution.
@Wink
why not just look at the bigger picture? Slardar has picked up Vanguard 43 times competitively, with a 54% win rate. His winrate on average is higher when he gets Vanguard before Blink. It's not like it's been picked up 4-5 times or something. No one is saying Vanguard is literally the best item, but in plenty of situations it does get alot of work done. And this is reflected in pro matches.
Sorry if you're too trash to play with those item builds. Your problem not mine.
@Vasile
So what you're saying is your still trash and can't learn to play better? Sorry, I don't play like you because I'm not bad.
@Zenoth
That would explain why mine is higher than you over many more games, which is harder to pull off because that means you have be consistent over time (simple logic there). Nice 42% winrate with spectre too. Your precious item build is doing you wonders.