Did I at any point say Sven is laning against you? This is obviously a safelane CK vs safelane Sven scenario.
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and no, you don't get more cleave damage because you're attacking illusions, that'd be abuseable as fuck, that's not how cleave works
well when you said "safelane CK against Sven" it was kinda misleading because you brought up the "lane", so our minds just try to put two and two together
why would you even point out safelane CK. dual mid ck and io has been dead for ages
...because that implies farm priority, that you are THE team's carry, it's not offlane CK that gets some levels and goes ganking (viable), you are NOT going dual mid with io (actually not dead, just not the subject of the thread), you are THE CARRY of your team and how you do in that position is majorly important, I probably should've said pos1 CK, but someone would still find a way to misread everything
build items that let you jump the sven and kill him in bolt I E silver edge, hex maybe
OR wait for the sven to go in and ur teammates to kite him
OR rape them before sven can do anything, ck has a huge power spike at lv 2, lv 7, lv 8, lv 11 etc
roaming ck is definitely a thing idk why u all are nitpicking like a bunch of r e t a r d s
@Joseph:
...because you could have a better farming carry in the safelane, while you can dedicate yourself to creating space and ganking, from the roaming role, or from mid or offlane, that's why the question mainly refers to a situation in which you're CK and at the same time the hardest carry on the team, with top farming priority, against a Sven in the same position.
I mean, you can't be too dumb to understand that, right? I know it's nuance, but the nuance is the reason I am asking this question, if you play offlane CK that naturally transitions into ganking, you would basically not give too much of a shit about being countered by Sven, for obvious reasons.
@JDF:
EDIT: Ah, thanks, I got an actual answer! So basically, let's say you're farming the safelane as CK, you're getting good farm and the enemy offlaner is zoned, Sven's cleave flashfarm has yet to help him gain an advantage over you, and he has not got any damage yet, you are in a good spot since you have more mobility, CC and damage at that point.
But then you're talking about silver edge and hex, but what items do you assume Sven is going to have at the time you have that? And what kind of a buildup would you go if you want those two items, do you still have an armlet/drums/echo sabre/whatever or do you go straight for it? The primary problem I see here is that Sven might eventually start flash farming, and outfarming the items you buy to counter him, though I gotta say I really like the idea of silver edge into stun/hex, so that he can't react even if he has a BKB, that definitely takes the cake as far as the strategy goes.
well shit another thing learned: singsing oov boots first item roaming ck is a legit thing recognized by a blue star
^have you tried playing against that? It's like Pudge, but deals more damage in less time, and just seeing him doesn't help because he will still run at you and fuck you up.
ive seen many retarded shit but that retarded shit is not about early utility for the team, it's more of the mom jugg mom sven and dagon bh kind of retarded
did you not see mekarazium with a million games of roam ck and positive winrate in 5k lolz?
huge base damage huge ms huge stun huge hp huge armor
hes high impact in the super early game its just if he doesnt transition he kinda drops off the face of the earth in usefulness
it is if they pair deso and phase with it
even then dagon money spent should go towards that guardian greaves or smthng
idk how to do this matchup u would be better off asking DD sama or whatever dedicated CK player. u i think go armlet echo sabre hex or armlet echo sabre silver edge, the armlet and echo are core because they accentuate ur power spike and make ur hero better at punishing the "greedy" sven (ur armlet = his hotd, then ur echo is almost on time with his or faster if you get good tower trades). hes going to get bkb blink by ur hex but at this point ur goal in life is to somehow initiate onto him instead of vice versa so you can kill him with the hex. alternatively you can rosh with ur team by ur hex then forceh is bkb in the life 1 without ulting then ult hex him on respawn
its such a shitty matchup because he has a simple plan: pop bkb and click on ck until he dies
and ur play is like hex him before he bkbs but hes in fog because he has blink so wtf do you do essentially
if you really need to compete in farm, well, battlefury?
plus in teamfights I think you need sven to jump on someone so you jump on sven, or just jump on sven flatout.
bf u will still fall behind a sven and then you cant push because ur illus are squishy and u will be 1 item behind sven all game anyway because he gets his bf for free and spent the money on hotd and echo which are also farm accelerants
You can't really compete in farm against Sven unless you're an alchemist, even AM sucks dick when it comes to that because Sven can do ancients early and have three useful items by the time you have treads and battlefury (and then sven can build shadow blade and keep killing you over and over because you die in shadowblade hit + stun + ult + echo sabre double hit).
Alright, my question is pretty much answered at this point, I see that the ideal scenario is being able to find and jump Sven somehow (possibly with SB and hex) before he can do anything, and yes, I know it's an unfavorable matchup, but I've won worse @ 3k, I've picked legion into oracle and bane and still won games by a landslide, so I know that as long as you have some idea of what you're doing you can win anything in 3k.
As far as outfarming Sven goes, it's 100x more useful to DISRUPT his farm than to try to outfarm him, and I guess one idea would be what JDF suggested, simply ganking him when he's farming should be pretty effective, as he'll be alert with blink and in fog while getting ready for a fight.
@ Jacked
To answer your Question about attacking main CK or Killing him with cleave, you should usually try attack the illusions and kill the main CK with cleave.
Cleave damage is based only on your attack damage (not on the damage your target takes) So if Sven has 100 damage he will cleave 66 damage to everyone regardless of what damage the unit he is hitting takes. The important bit is that cleave damage is NOT REDUCED BY ARMOUR. This means that everyone hit by the cleave will take 66 damage regardless of their armour values.
As you can see on this graph (http://dota2.gamepedia.com/File:Dota_2_armor_graph_plain.svg) a unit with 10 armour will take only 62.5% of all physical damage. So our Sven would only do 62.5 damage to CK if he hits him directly, but if he hits an illusion and the cleave hits CK, then CK takes 66 damage.
If you want too look more into these mechanics then go take a look at the Dota 2 Wiki, they have pretty detailed pages for cleave and armour.
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TL;DR: If CK has about 10 or more armour then its better to attack an illusion and hit CK with the cleave.
კომენტარის დასაწერად გაიარეთ ავტორიზაცია.
If you happen to end up with safelane CK against Sven, what do you actually do at what point in the game, and how do you build, but more importantly, how do you deal with the fact that Sven will likely have 300+ GPM on you if you both farm as well as the heroes allow? I am guessing you try to fight earlier and a lot more and pressure towers that secure Sven's farm, but what if you don't have that much control over the game, or the team never follows through with your decisions, but enemy clumps up and you can't gank lonely people as easily?