I have never ever had problems with a spectre as slark if both of us farmed . U can even build a silver edge to take away specs passive , slark don't give a fuck about rad damage , no lock down for slark Etc .
^ yes but spectre gets totally annihilated by bkb.
Also, a late game spectre, when he has 7+items enemy teams supports are pretty farmed too, bkb + pipe, your spectre suddenly does no damage
I dont find spectre such a ultra late game hero, he is good with 3 items, radiance, heart, manta, but unlike most of carries he gets countered hard by bkb, I think there are few carries that needs more resources to deal with ( I.e slark, amazing mobility, spectre is a sitting fat duck)
Allu is really not that simple, spectre is a monster ultra late game, he will always have a refresher remenber that. Her illusions will do a really good amount of physical and pure damage of desolate by then, fast tanky and hard hitting illusions running to your supports.
I don't think Slark can do as much as PL, Spectre, Medusa, Ember, Naga or even AM because Slark lacks aoe big time. Also he's not good at pushing compared to these heroes.
For example; in TI5 main event, Slark was picked once and was outcarried by Morphling. Spectre was picked once and won against Gyro&SF.
In most pub games, Slark can snowball faster than anyone. That's why he's useful.
It's not just about 1v1 or getting more kills. Imagine like this;
In a 70-80 min game, 6 slotted Slark vs. 6 slotted Spectre, which carry's side will likely to win the game?
Sure, Slark is a great hero and do the carry job pretty well. But if we think of him as hard carry, he's probably on Gyro level. Not on PL, Spectre, Medusa, Ember, Naga level.
Again,as you said, it isnt that simple. A spectre cant really farm fast even with radiance unless heavily snowballing so by the time he gets 7 + slotted, supports will most likely have bkb + one tank item like solar crest,lotus orb, even shiva. So via bkb you nullify the pure damage from illusions and with armor/evasion you get some of their attack damage. If you add that vanguard upgrade active ability ( cant remember how item is called) you will take very little damage.
^ well, PL lacks aoe too, he can only attack one hero at the time, naga aswell, I mean, yea you can send illusions but tthey arent gonna kill anybody, AM as well, besides ulti no AoE.
there are not much carries that have AoE damage besides ember gyro spectre medusa, potentially tiny but they have to be grouped as fuck, or maybe a void wit bfury, as well, enemies have to be grouped as fuck.
You ask about Slark being hard carry. And mention most hard carries can not snowball/farm as fast as Slark. What's the logic in that?
Every hard-carry needs at least 1 expensive item to get online, PL needs Diffusal, Spec needs Diffusal or Radiance, Medusa needs Linken's or Skadi, AM needs Fury.
You only try to see things the way you want to see. Spectre's opponents getting BKBs and some other items to lower his efficiency and Slark's opponent just sits in their corner?
I'll repeat; Slark isn't an aoe carry which is a big con for hard carry. Slark isn't good at pushing. That's why he can not be compared to PL, Spectre, Medusa, Ember and Naga. Whatever you like it or not, the answer is this.
I remember one game were I was balling out of control as spectre and was vs slark we won but at the 35 minute mark slark started owning me , luckily our team lead was enough to win. But this was with a huge lead pre 35 minute .
Well im not saying random words, i play spectre, not so much now cause shes in a kinda bad spot right now (early 5 man, abusive offlaners), and i know by fact that at 60+ min you can stay in your base or jungle (if safe) and let your team initiate or be initiated WITHOUT you and belive me i have otucarried the shit out of imposible lategame games since i play dota back in WC3 dota doing this:
1) Stay safe in a place where nobody can initiate you if necesary in fountain or split pushing with manta
2) When the fight begins be sure that the other team cannon disengage if you ult, then pres R
3) Then check who can be jumped without being punished (maybe a support) and jump (reality) use dagger and manta and JUMP BACK to your original position abuse this mechanic
4) If youre not in fountain tp base with travels
5) Get refresher from your stash, use it, return it to stash
6) Wait until you haunt is about to expire, then ult again
7) If the game is in an ultralate stage and you have an abyssal or divine or some shit like that in your stash swap it for your diffusal
8) Engage wit your hero ball deeps, at that point nobody will have bkb active
9) If for some reason you die, buyback and tp with travels 2 to any ally
10) Win dota at that point only a 2 rapier Dusa maybe can outcarry you
Spectre is about abusing some mechanics in dota like the 6 slot cap, the buyback, global presence, initiation capability...
You can play her as a mid game press R to win carry, but when all comes to potential that hero is the most gamebreaking thing
PD: that spectre with VG and heart is a passive as fuck build im not surprised that he loses HP builds are good in mid game, but damage builds are the way to go in late, and that poor sniper :PPP
if you say void vs spec, or dusa vs spec is ok, but not slark, even BSJ a +6500 slark player said that spectre is the most scary 6-slotted hero in the game.
Slark just has crap AOE damage by himself late game. On a carry like Anti Mage, you can at least rely on a decent Mana Void or cleave from bfury, and other carries like Luna and Gyro naturally do a ton of AOE damage. Slark just has Dark Pact, which does crap damage against tanky illusions with a Heart or something. So if ur not playing against an illusion hero or someone who who would get Manta, ur fine I guess. I still don't think he's effective in a short teamfight past the 50 minute mark though.
Dark Seer is a combo hero who needs good coordination with your team for his full potential. He's not a hero you wanna pick with random soloq pubbers, more for a team you trust to communicate with. Same as wisp I guess, who is a lot more common in stacks than soloq.
qb is not "really good" on slark, bench mark being qb antimage
you dont need it to finish many small camps and all your lane creeps start at 250 hp and early game you are going to pact a hard camp twice with or without qb
U pact a hard camp twice ur hp will be like 100 early game preetty risky plus ull have to wait longer to regen from passive than from half health with one pact that you can do if u got a qb .
QB is decent for slark because when laning phase he need those + damage on slark cause he still no regen and can't spam skill 1. after lvl 7-8 up up he can farm using skill 1 to destroy creep wave. so it is decent. i like it thou.
Honestly i'd rather just go right into PMS and get my extra 6 damage/attack speed + block chance from that. I mean Slark actually has solid base damage already, and the PMS right away does a lot for him.
silver edge fucks up spectre pretty bad too and slark is natural silver edge carrier. And against medusa, longer the fight goes the more stats he steals. He can definitely HC. He snowballs like blood (just not as noob friendly) and then doesn't fall off. Maybe he doesn't HC as well as aoe killers like dusa and spec but so what? Game isn't played in a vacuum.
I think people initially under estimate slark atfirst and think he is just a snow ball hero but eventually come to realize he is actaully a carry that has good snow ball potential on top of it.
offlane slark is not a thing unless you are playing on a low mmr account and your real mmr is 1k higher
I never saw a offlane Slark winning
I have never ever had problems with a spectre as slark if both of us farmed . U can even build a silver edge to take away specs passive , slark don't give a fuck about rad damage , no lock down for slark Etc .
Offlane slark isn't a a good thing but it's doable . He can recover in jungle .
At level 7
Slark dont give a fuck about spectre in general, but a full stacked spectre dont has to focus slark in tf to win
^ yes but spectre gets totally annihilated by bkb.
Also, a late game spectre, when he has 7+items enemy teams supports are pretty farmed too, bkb + pipe, your spectre suddenly does no damage
I dont find spectre such a ultra late game hero, he is good with 3 items, radiance, heart, manta, but unlike most of carries he gets countered hard by bkb, I think there are few carries that needs more resources to deal with ( I.e slark, amazing mobility, spectre is a sitting fat duck)
Allu is really not that simple, spectre is a monster ultra late game, he will always have a refresher remenber that. Her illusions will do a really good amount of physical and pure damage of desolate by then, fast tanky and hard hitting illusions running to your supports.
I don't think Slark can do as much as PL, Spectre, Medusa, Ember, Naga or even AM because Slark lacks aoe big time. Also he's not good at pushing compared to these heroes.
For example; in TI5 main event, Slark was picked once and was outcarried by Morphling. Spectre was picked once and won against Gyro&SF.
In most pub games, Slark can snowball faster than anyone. That's why he's useful.
It's not just about 1v1 or getting more kills. Imagine like this;
In a 70-80 min game, 6 slotted Slark vs. 6 slotted Spectre, which carry's side will likely to win the game?
Sure, Slark is a great hero and do the carry job pretty well. But if we think of him as hard carry, he's probably on Gyro level. Not on PL, Spectre, Medusa, Ember, Naga level.
Again,as you said, it isnt that simple. A spectre cant really farm fast even with radiance unless heavily snowballing so by the time he gets 7 + slotted, supports will most likely have bkb + one tank item like solar crest,lotus orb, even shiva. So via bkb you nullify the pure damage from illusions and with armor/evasion you get some of their attack damage. If you add that vanguard upgrade active ability ( cant remember how item is called) you will take very little damage.
^ well, PL lacks aoe too, he can only attack one hero at the time, naga aswell, I mean, yea you can send illusions but tthey arent gonna kill anybody, AM as well, besides ulti no AoE.
there are not much carries that have AoE damage besides ember gyro spectre medusa, potentially tiny but they have to be grouped as fuck, or maybe a void wit bfury, as well, enemies have to be grouped as fuck.
Oh, and sven
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1391426104
spectre tried
^ bkbs on cores, spectre cant kill them.
and that was befor silver edge even got introduced
You ask about Slark being hard carry. And mention most hard carries can not snowball/farm as fast as Slark. What's the logic in that?
Every hard-carry needs at least 1 expensive item to get online, PL needs Diffusal, Spec needs Diffusal or Radiance, Medusa needs Linken's or Skadi, AM needs Fury.
You only try to see things the way you want to see. Spectre's opponents getting BKBs and some other items to lower his efficiency and Slark's opponent just sits in their corner?
I'll repeat; Slark isn't an aoe carry which is a big con for hard carry. Slark isn't good at pushing. That's why he can not be compared to PL, Spectre, Medusa, Ember and Naga. Whatever you like it or not, the answer is this.
PL and Naga lack aoe? I'm done in this thread. Noob detected.
i just never lost a game as slark to spectre.
mb like 1 game or something
^ u can theory craft all u want but I never lose vs spec with slark either
I remember one game were I was balling out of control as spectre and was vs slark we won but at the 35 minute mark slark started owning me , luckily our team lead was enough to win. But this was with a huge lead pre 35 minute .
Well im not saying random words, i play spectre, not so much now cause shes in a kinda bad spot right now (early 5 man, abusive offlaners), and i know by fact that at 60+ min you can stay in your base or jungle (if safe) and let your team initiate or be initiated WITHOUT you and belive me i have otucarried the shit out of imposible lategame games since i play dota back in WC3 dota doing this:
1) Stay safe in a place where nobody can initiate you if necesary in fountain or split pushing with manta
2) When the fight begins be sure that the other team cannon disengage if you ult, then pres R
3) Then check who can be jumped without being punished (maybe a support) and jump (reality) use dagger and manta and JUMP BACK to your original position abuse this mechanic
4) If youre not in fountain tp base with travels
5) Get refresher from your stash, use it, return it to stash
6) Wait until you haunt is about to expire, then ult again
7) If the game is in an ultralate stage and you have an abyssal or divine or some shit like that in your stash swap it for your diffusal
8) Engage wit your hero ball deeps, at that point nobody will have bkb active
9) If for some reason you die, buyback and tp with travels 2 to any ally
10) Win dota at that point only a 2 rapier Dusa maybe can outcarry you
Spectre is about abusing some mechanics in dota like the 6 slot cap, the buyback, global presence, initiation capability...
You can play her as a mid game press R to win carry, but when all comes to potential that hero is the most gamebreaking thing
PD: that spectre with VG and heart is a passive as fuck build im not surprised that he loses HP builds are good in mid game, but damage builds are the way to go in late, and that poor sniper :PPP
if you say void vs spec, or dusa vs spec is ok, but not slark, even BSJ a +6500 slark player said that spectre is the most scary 6-slotted hero in the game.
Well if spec is 7 slotted I can see that I haven't encountered a 7 slotted spectre in my slark games .
Slark just has crap AOE damage by himself late game. On a carry like Anti Mage, you can at least rely on a decent Mana Void or cleave from bfury, and other carries like Luna and Gyro naturally do a ton of AOE damage. Slark just has Dark Pact, which does crap damage against tanky illusions with a Heart or something. So if ur not playing against an illusion hero or someone who who would get Manta, ur fine I guess. I still don't think he's effective in a short teamfight past the 50 minute mark though.
DERAILING TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIME
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1739207640
Seriously what the actual fuck
What kind of voodo do i need to win this kind of game
^---shouldn't this be why more dual lane combos should be viable?
Also would think dark seer would have more run now after TI.
Dark Seer is a combo hero who needs good coordination with your team for his full potential. He's not a hero you wanna pick with random soloq pubbers, more for a team you trust to communicate with. Same as wisp I guess, who is a lot more common in stacks than soloq.
Let's be honest yeah darkseer is all those things but he is also on the flip side something very annoying to the opposing teams carry.
qb is not "really good" on slark, bench mark being qb antimage
you dont need it to finish many small camps and all your lane creeps start at 250 hp and early game you are going to pact a hard camp twice with or without qb
U pact a hard camp twice ur hp will be like 100 early game preetty risky plus ull have to wait longer to regen from passive than from half health with one pact that you can do if u got a qb .
QB is decent for slark because when laning phase he need those + damage on slark cause he still no regen and can't spam skill 1. after lvl 7-8 up up he can farm using skill 1 to destroy creep wave. so it is decent. i like it thou.
and silver-edge is fucking strong in this fucking heroes. with those break can wreck havoc. seriously.
PMS -> tango -> GG -> QB -> Threads -> SB -> SNY -> basher -> disamble SNY -> silveredge + yasha ->bkb/linken -> skadi -> abyssal -> butterfly -> moonshard.
so late game will be threads - Silver edge -> bkb/linken -> skadi -> abyssal -> butterfly -> eaten moonshard.
i do like the fact that he regen so fast like 100 hp/s outside combat.
u aim supports, all support dead. ur teammates control enemy carries. while u regen. then fight againts part 2
Honestly i'd rather just go right into PMS and get my extra 6 damage/attack speed + block chance from that. I mean Slark actually has solid base damage already, and the PMS right away does a lot for him.
silver edge fucks up spectre pretty bad too and slark is natural silver edge carrier. And against medusa, longer the fight goes the more stats he steals. He can definitely HC. He snowballs like blood (just not as noob friendly) and then doesn't fall off. Maybe he doesn't HC as well as aoe killers like dusa and spec but so what? Game isn't played in a vacuum.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1739365526
I think people initially under estimate slark atfirst and think he is just a snow ball hero but eventually come to realize he is actaully a carry that has good snow ball potential on top of it.
im the best slark eu, ask triplesteal.
i carried them so fking hard, too bad the servers crashed