General Discussion

General Discussion2-1-2 best for pubs

2-1-2 best for pubs in General Discussion
Dire Wolf

    Seems like whenever my team has a jungle or a trilane vs an enemy 2-1-2 the 2-1-2 lane always wins. You guys feeling the same? Yet teams hardly ever 2-1-2. They see a clock pick, oh he's gotta be solo offlane. Mirana, bh, tide, timber, solo offlane assumed.

    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1700930106

    I mean here's perfect example, these dicks on the enemy team sent clock AND axe offlane. Clinkz solo off for us, roaming bh (so pro). Not much can handle an axe + clock off, maybe drow and veno or some really heavy ranged shit. If axe had jungled instead I think outcome would've been much different.

    Seems like well over half my games though are trilane or jungle setups. Why do you think pubs gravitate towards that?

    Metallicize

      clink could solo that lane

      the realm's delight

        2-1-2 best for 3k us pubs*

        კომენტარი შეიცვალა
        Last picking is 4 pussies

          Only jungle currently worth it for pubs is bs. Since the hero has no mana or oh requirements that ever force him to well.

          I myself love 2-1-2 and aggressive offlane duos. I will warn you this though do not do it against a tri lane containing Earthshaker.

          BR🧐INI🧐C

            No one in their right mind does 2-1-2 anymore, unless the dual offlane is some stinky counterpick/lastpick shit (Abaddon+Huskar ?).

            კომენტარი შეიცვალა
            MellyBi

              mirana worst solo off ever

              Dire Wolf

                Why? Just assume you won't get a ton of cs and don't put a farming carry there but load up on disables. Even if you go like sven or dk + jakiro or cm or any other disabler you can pressure their carry a lot.

                naruto

                  I wish the 2-1-2 lineup came back. It has been over a year now since the trend is to go 3/1/1. But with the skills obtained in the offlane, soloing against 3 heroes, it should be easier if you get 2 players to face 3 instead of just one

                  arin

                    nobody in 3k knows how to trilane properly (including me)

                    so aggresive dual lane can pretty easily crush the opposing trilane

                    Lavine

                      @Arin - whats up with that Dark Seer in ur last game? :DDDD

                      BR🧐INI🧐C

                        ^ He won with normal items, he just sold all his items for Masks right before ancient went down...

                        arin

                          how do you want to counter 90% lifesteal dark seer

                          you can't manfight it
                          you can't run from it

                          free win literally

                          Lavine

                            why would he do that meme

                            Sixe史吏

                              2-1-2 is default until:
                              1) Supports can consistently stack and pull.
                              2) Carries can consistently last-hit, even under tower, can do so without dying, and prefers last-hits to harrass.
                              3) The offlaner can survive 1v3 lanes.
                              4) The supports are the ones expected to gank mid more than mid is expected to gank bot or top.

                              In other words, 2-1-2 is default under <3.5k.

                              Dipshit

                                ^

                                The biggest problem with tri lanes at low mmr is that they think a tri lane is just sticking 3 heroes in a lane.

                                Dire Wolf

                                  Yeah definitely, if you don't zone out or kill offlaner a trilane is useless. A dual vs a solo ought to be enough just to keep carry from dying and secure farm. But that's why I like the dual offlane, cus you can pressure a weaker lane like when teams pick AM or spectre.

                                  Hopeless

                                    2-1-2 is not necessarily "best" for pubs.

                                    What is best is for supports who have no fucking clue how to tri-lane, to not tri-lane. Same for roaming. Basically 2-1-2 is harder to completely fuck up.

                                    I have had many successful pub tri lanes, including my last game, but I have had just as many tri-lanes where the supports don't know how to read the game and flow of laning and just fuck everything up.

                                    კომენტარი შეიცვალა
                                    Protato BBnoZAR

                                      A jungler is fine as long as they have a big game impact early.
                                      When I have to jungle I pick utility doom and get arcanes and mech 1st.

                                      Totentanz to The King: M ...

                                        2-1-2 is sometimes really bad though, unless you have insane laners like Lich and Undying. Why it's bad is because no matter how good a dual lane is, it will probably lose to a trilane. And then their offlane only has to face one support, which means he will have a way easier time and may even get kills.

                                        arin

                                          Trilane in 3k

                                          one support stays with you all the time while leeching xp and doing nothing
                                          in 50% games he sometimes decides to autoattack the opposing offlaner which ruins the equilibrium beyond saving
                                          meanwhile other support pulls single camp 4 times in a row and wonders why does the creepwave end under enemy tower all the time

                                          which is how i play supports in trilanes as well

                                          Metallicize

                                            when i play support i sit between trees and leech xp from my carry, always place wards on the same spot (on runes) even after they het dewarded, i try to steal runes from my mid, i upgrade courier at min ~15, and i use spells only when i can kill an enemy (on low hp enemies).

                                            Metallicize

                                              and i am 4.5k mmr, idk what u doing wrong kids

                                              Vaikiss`742.

                                                idk i just played slark +2 supports vs their due lane

                                                got quite fed ez gaem

                                                saving private RTZ

                                                  in 3k i would say 2-1-2 is good cuz most of the time each team has a jungler so you tell your teammates to make dual offlane and fuck up with enemy duo safelane, and you have ez farm on safelane cuz most of the offlaners dont know what they are doing.

                                                  Trilane is cancer, nobody make double pull, or pull through,, rarely someone stacks, nobody ganks mid, they just sit in lane or in the trees " harrasing the offlaner"

                                                  Dire Wolf

                                                    Yeah that's like how I jungle, pre nerf I'd go troll jungle and rosh around 7 mins then go kill all the t1 towers. Or ursa, rosh with morbid mask at level 4 to 6. It's when you get like wk or medua jungles you are in trouble, those guys will be in there 20 mins.

                                                    I find supports pulling too much to be a bigger problem than not pulling at all, it's impossible to last hit under tower on some heroes at min 2. Like if I'm on spectre, fuck me if he constantly pulls behind tower. You will take so much dmg and miss last hits cus spectres base dmg is bad and we aren't pros. A hero like sven or ck I'm fine with, they have good armor and dmg.

                                                    Mekarazium
                                                      კომენტარი წაშალა მოდერატორმა
                                                      Last picking is 4 pussies

                                                        Biggest problem with supports is them pulling single stacks out the easy camp instead of stacking.

                                                        At low 4k and below this is why as dire offlane i just block the upper camp and not the pull camp. So after their stupid single stack the lane pushes.

                                                        კომენტარი შეიცვალა
                                                        Filthy

                                                          What's best supports to play ? Wyvern and cm seem good who else I wanna start practicing support and I always did carry before

                                                          Last picking is 4 pussies

                                                            ^----dazzle

                                                            arin

                                                              does that shit happen even in 4k

                                                              what am i doing with my life when i'm pursuing this

                                                              Tai sabaki

                                                                Omni is crazy powerful but he's hard to play, need a lot of patience and self-sacrifice. You heal/repel the core hero that is getting focused, but then they will all focus you and kill you instead :)

                                                                Last picking is 4 pussies

                                                                  ^---problem with omni is unless a tri lane what hero you supporting? Talking range/melee style.

                                                                  im so bad at artifact

                                                                    Lol @ people saying 2-1-2 is better up until a certain MMR.

                                                                    2-1-2 is almost always better than having a jungler. In the most early game centric patch in years, being 4v5 early game can be downright gamelosing. Not to mention smart players won't actually let a jungler freefarm to begin with.

                                                                    There's also the fact that Dota is a game about having an advantage. It's not your team's farm that matters. It's the difference between your team's farm and the other team's farm that matters. Running an aggressive duo off shuts down the enemy carry while also getting another farmable lane for your team.

                                                                    Let's take a 2-1-1-1 versus 2-1-2. I'll even give the benefit of the doubt and assume that the duo off is about on par with the enemy safelane duo, and that the jungler doesn't get contested at all.
                                                                    Mid is contested farm for both teams, but the 2-1-2 mid has a slight advantage because if the 2-1-1-1 support leaves to gank mid, the safelane gets steamrolled in the meantime.
                                                                    The 2-1-2's offlane and 2-1-1-1 safelane both get contested farm.
                                                                    The 2-1-2's safelane gets freefarm while the 2-1-1-1's offlaner gets very little.
                                                                    The 2-1-1-1's jungler gets freefarm.
                                                                    The 2-1-2 has 2 supports, one of which can almost always roam freely, whereas 2-1-1-1 is stuck solo supporting and tied to a lane.

                                                                    So 2-1-1 gets:
                                                                    Contested farm mid, but slight advantage.
                                                                    Contested farm off.
                                                                    Freefarm safe.
                                                                    2 supports.

                                                                    2-1-1-1 gets:
                                                                    Contested farm mid, slight disadvantage.
                                                                    No farm on offlaner.
                                                                    Contested farm safe.
                                                                    Freefarm jungler.
                                                                    1 support.

                                                                    So in terms of cores, the 2-1-2's cores get just as much farm (2 contested, 1 freefarm) if not slightly more, plus they have 2 supports.

                                                                    Of course, this is a worst case scenario for the 2-1-2. You don't pick a duo off that merely goes on par with the enemy safe, you pick something that stomps their safelane. Also you can go mess with their jungler.

                                                                    Junglers are gamelosing unless you see that you already have a completely sufficient offlane (e.g. Phoenix or Brood against some lane completely unequipped to deal with them), and a sufficient safelane. Even then, it's usually more gamewinning to just pick a support that has the option of jungling when there's absolutely nothing else to do, like SK or CM, since you could just smoke gank mid for free money.

                                                                    npc
                                                                      კომენტარი წაშალა მოდერატორმა
                                                                      Last picking is 4 pussies

                                                                        ^---not a single person is saying 2-1-2 < jungled I believe the comparison is made more towards 2-1-2 >=< tri lanes

                                                                        arin

                                                                          ^
                                                                          because nobody wants to support so people rather stay in jungle and play farmville

                                                                          they usually end up waking up around the time when they're trying to push highground

                                                                          Dipshit

                                                                            Meh having a jungler is fine, but the jungler HAS to gank around level 2-3, and keep ganking. They can't just farm the jungle for 20 minutes and come out expecting the lanes to not be on fire.