What heroes are you talking about? Some supports (such as venge) its good to stay back like that. Or else get a ghost sceptre or force staff to get out of sticky situations.
stay back with ur ghost scepter and force staff or whatever u got and juke them while hey are bkb'd once that shit wears off rape their face
I totally agree but as of late I find myself the last one standing with most or all of my team dead by the time the dust settles, then I don't know what to do 1v5 2v5 or even 1v3.
with ghost/force/euls etc the enemy carry will have trouble focusing you then you put your disables into the other teams supports giving your team more free range to kill
Do not die early in fights - if you manage to do this you will cast your spells multiple times and have a higher impact because of that.
Ward/Deward. If the warding location is no-man's land, give wards to a core who can go there.
Don't move alone if enemies have a fed hero with extreme solo kill potential. (Storm, Bone, TA)
Get a Gem to gain map control. Be careful with it.
Make some stacks. More resources is always good.
Keep timings of Roshan and big ultimates. As well as items.
Find farm of your own. If no cores are farming an empty lane or jungle, go there. But be careful - don't be out of position.
Gather team for Smoke. And go find pickoffs or take Roshan.
Properly itemize. You are poor, so wisely decide what items you need. Inform team via alt-click what you will buy and how much gold do you need for that, they can help you get that.
Be near cores who are farming so you can aid them. Especially if you are playing Venge. Defensive swap - best swap.
Defend the base.
Random tips from non-support player. A lot of this can be applied outside of support field.
Lich tip!
I noticed in your last 3 Lich games you skill Nova on level 1. Isn't it wiser to get Sacrifice at level 1 so you can take out a creep as soon as it spawns? That way enemies gold and XP gain is reduced and you get slight XP lead. Eat mid lane melee creep and you ensure that your midlaner gets level 2 before opposing mid. Or eat offlaners creep to push back the lane.
Nova on lvl is risky and situational. If there's a skirmish over first rune or you have high kill potential (3v1, 2v1) go for Nova, otherwise do what I wrote above.
Rhasta tip!
I see you are maxing Hex and Shackles. Not a good idea. Better to max Fork. It deals good damage, which is useful for ganking, counter ganking, farming, pushing. Go for a single point in Shackles. On level 7 have 4-1-1-1 build. After max Hex and last Shackles. Trust me.
PotM + CM tip!
With Mirana I suggest 4-2-1-1 build. One point in Leap for escaping/chasing. 2 points in Arrow because level 1 deals 50 damage and level 2 deals 140 damage, so with 2 levels you nearly triple the damage of your spell. Max Starfall cause it's more reliable than Arrow and it deals good AoE damage. Without SF if you miss arrow you won't deal much damage in fights, but with it you have hudge damage especially if you hit an Arrow, walk/leap to enemy and hit them with double Starfall. Just manage your mana, don't use Starfall unless you or your teammates will kill an enemy or force him back to base.
For CM. Go for 1-1-0-0 build on level 2. With a stun, slow and 2 nukes it's very possible to net a kill with your lane partner. Max aura after. Abuse the jungle with CM. Frostbite deals 1000 damage to creeps, so you can easily take out big creeps for early gold/XP advantage. You can also stack the hard camp and clear it with your ultimate.
about tips written by gg
Except lich, the choice of skillbuild is situational. You do not really need to follow some guides/pro plays/ whatever, better to be flexible and aware of what is needed at any point of the game. If you feel confident that shcakles/hex gonna help u more than fork, max 'em. Just don't forget to think about what you really need.
Of course you all are right, when you say: "buy ghost", "buy force staff", "buy eul". But it's hard to get any items if your only farm is automatic 100 gold per minute (and you have to buy wards anyway).
P.S. I disagree with "gg" on his tips. If your team has few or no disables, then it's ok to max hex and shackles first for Shadow Shaman. Crystal Maiden must max Frostbite first, IMHO. At lvl 7 (1-4-1-1) find enemy hero without disables and kill him with Frostbite + Ult, it's easy.
P.P.S. When I have to deal with farmed Spectre as a support, I just sit in base fountain and TP into the fight when she uses haunt. It works. =)
P.P.P.S. I have different issue. Whenever I pick Viper, I have to say in chat something like this: "I want to play support Viper, please respect my choice and pick your heroes accordingly". It's not working, my teammates pick supports or junglers anyway and force me to farm as core. Heh...
I didn't say those were one and only skill builds. DotA is a series of actions and reactions, and the first element in that chain shouldn't be learning a spell at fountain. And I certainly didn't say that you should be doing everything I said in every single game. I merely gave some general tips and elaborated briefly why they are good. But let's go more indepth.
For Lich I stated two situations because there are two possible scenarios, either you are altering creep equilibrium to your favor or you're contesting the rune.
About Shaman, 4-1-1-1 is the best build and should be done nearly every game. Just read Rhasta's tool tips. AoE nuke, 320 dmg, 7 targets. In the early game dealing 260/320 damage in 0.3 seconds is more than any hero can inflict during the extra disable time that you would have choosing Hex or god forbid Shackles. And actual damage increases cause if you hit multiple heroes with Fork you are doing more damage. Level 4 Fork on 2 targets equals 480 total damage, on 3 targets it's 720 dmg (negates a Mek heal, enemy core invested gold, you invested skill points). With a maxed hex you can't deal that kind of damage. A level 1 Hex and a level 1 Shackle are enough to allow your Jugger or Kunka or [Hero] to properly initiate. Fork has longest cast range, lowest mana cost, lowest cooldown of all Rhasta's spells. Also it's his only AoE spell (inb4 Ulty has splash). Just look at mana cost of each of his spells per level and compare. Shackle has horrible cast range, 400, do you really want to be that close to the enemies with slow and squishy Shaman? By casting Shackles you are begging for death, cause enemies certainly want to free a disabled core. Not only that, but you are disabling yourself for the same time, being a sitting duck for any spell/hero.
And about Maiden, you are playing her because your team needs mana. Your point about 1-4-1-1 build is correct, but you will be level 7 as a position #4-5 when compared to enemy cores? And your ultimate has a cooldown of two and half minutes, so not making that kill with it hurts. However vs AM, QoP, WR, etc. investing additional points in Frostbite is good. Consider skilling it evenly with aura. CM's ulty is another example of begging for death...
tl;dr SS 4-1-1-1 best build, CM 1-4-1-1 not so viable, but can work.
And if you are PotM and you have Leap at level 1 you fucked up. You were out of position and needed an exit. Win for enemies, they aren't pressured early on because no arrow as a threat. Already I explained why level 2 Arrow is good, and why Starfall is good to be maxed. However if you are playing from behind and do not have sustain for Starfall, you should skip it. And if you have a good set-up for Arrow you can max it first, but keep in mind that having a set-up =/= hitting Arrow. Set-up = hitting Arrow only if enemies don't interfere with it. (Swap, Force, waking from Nighmare via attacks or Aphotic Shield or Press the Attack, other enemies between PotM and desired Arrow target).
@soultrap u tell retards in ur team that u wont buy wards cuz u dont need them and they will start buying them theirselves
works all the time 60% of the time
@gg
Shackles is 5 second disable (same as max range arrow). How much damage your carry can do in 5 seconds? I think more than 320 magic damage for sure. Also you can solo kill with it: hex => ult => shackles = easy solo lvl 7 kill. What you can do with fork? You can steal last hits with it from your cores, is that what you want? Shame...
@30 lasthits/10min
But I want to buy wards...
![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
^ Or you can fork first on the hero or creepwave so your ally DP/QoP/Sven/whatever can farm extra fast/get a kill more easily while spending less resources himself, you know?
@SoulTrap
The same amount he can do during 2.75 seconds disable combined with 320 damage, at least early. Cast range of Shackles is 400 compared to Fork which is 600, cooldown is longer, damage is lower... Just read what I wrote. Fucking best support or Rhasta can tell me that Shackles > Fork and I still wouldn't believe him cause it ain't true.
@[Lk].Zano
To win the game your team must destroy enemy ancient. Killing heroes help too, because they protect it. Killing creeps does not, because they are weak and dumb.
At first I had the same thoughts as you, nuking spells are important, but don't underestimate the power of disables.
P.S. Believe it or not...
No-one is underestimating disables, but I'm talking about optimizing skill points. Level 1 Shackle is a disable. And killing creeps is important cause it's a way to push and defend. You have no such powers with no Fork. Just accept that maxing Fork is better in 99.99% of games. I ain't commenting on this subject no more.
Huskar.
Huskar with armlet and dominator. And you: lvl 7 shaman.
What you prefer to have for this fight:
1) 320 magic damage nuke;
2) Extra 3 seconds of disable.
Answer is obvious for me.
P.S. Ok, mb Huskar is bad example, but you can take any other carry with lifestealing. You can use your fork on PA, then she crits you once, crits you twice, you dead, she at full hp again. 4 reports to shaman from teammates, because this newb not maxing hex first, and they can't buy MKBs fast enough.
Thank you all for your input that is very helpful and I will try to implement it in my games. I try to really play the part of a support (even though that is ambiguous in itself) so that is why I level the disables on ss first (I don't push the lane with my aoe and I can use the disables to set up kills or save my carry sometimes at my own sacrifice. The same concept goes for the cm. I can decently jungle with one level of frost bite and disable to protect or imitate and I try to max aura as soon as possible for the team but of course I deviate if I need to.
Positioning is very difficult for me sometimes. I struggle with it a lot sometimes due to the range of spells and just coordinating with the other teammates. For example when ulting with CM or SS in a team fight but having my team move away from the ulties rendering them useless in the particular fight. The timing and positioning can be really tricky for me with respect to the team.
Thanks again for all the comments I really appreciate it.
Max my friend, please, please max fucking Fork. Ofc SS needs to push, with Fork you can reach towers on your own and take them down with cobras. 4-1-1-1 on level 7 and 4-4-1-2 on 11 works in 99% of the games.
Also you can defend and harass and find some farm for your items. Repeating my self, but Fork deals 320 damage per target in 0.3 seconds, that's more than any hero can deal during extra disable time. And if you hit 3 heroes, it's 960 damage. That kind of damage gets countered by Mek, or if you think about it your nuke negates 2k+ investment of a core, so it's the other way around. A single point in your disables early is enough to provide initation. And by the time you get Dagger, Hex will be maxed out. Shackles are shit tier spell... 400 range, 170 mana, 16 seconds CD, channeling compared to 600 range, 160 mana, 8 seconds CD near instant spell.
Just try the Fork build please.
Honestly I think 4-4-1-2 SS is DotA 101. Like very basics. In fact I'm saying if you skip Fork you are a noob. Yes, there are marginal and theoretical situations where Shackles are better, but come on it's not even 1% of games.
And about pickoffs. Hex + Ward Trap + Fork + Shackles (if needed) = dead hero.
I honestly thought people are more aware and that max Hex and Shackles happens only in 2k bracket or something. I can't stress enough how shit it is.
@gg
I'm sure you are very skilled DOTA 2 player. Mid player (TA, SF, Brew)... Please, let supports play their own game, which looks very different from mid point of view.
@SoulTrap
Ok. But perhaps you want to check some higher tier Shaman plays or professional ones. Or simply use common sense.
I really can't believe someone is advocating Shackles over Fork as a build that will work most of the time. I'm shocked actually.
And please don't judge my dota skills and knowledge by my profile, those are only stats...
Many tips written, won't repeat. Just about that Mirana.. her build is one of the most situational. I've seen pros maxing leap, arrow or starfall. Each has purpose and really depends what you and your team are up to. But yeah, 2 for arrow and maxing starfall is usually the case.
Also maxing stun as Venge is fail, don't think it was mentioned. Don't do that.
Know your role and purpose in fight and position accordingly. Enjoy playing the best role in DotA.
@gg
Look at dotabuff statistics:
http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/shadow-shaman/builds
Shadow Shaman has 1,7% higher winrate if he puts first point in Ether Shock only at lvl 10 and max it at 14.
Also 1,2% higher winrate if he maxes Shackles at lvl 7.
P.S. I think the only reason why ability build with maxed Q at lvl 7 exists (and has higher than 10% winrate), is because sometimes you may see mid Shadow Shaman.
About Venge stun. Now it's questionable but before it was 1 or 2 points in stun and then maxing wave 1st and aura 2nd. With every level cooldown decreases and stun and damage also. IDK if you should max it or not... Need opinions on this one. I think I saw NS maxing stun since new patch.
^ IDK if trolling or serious, but no1 will ever convince me that Shackles > Fork
shakles is only better if ur in lane with carry that can dish out shit tons of damage while enemy is disabled
gyro/jugger (idk if theres any other lol )
Had a Lion game where I just warded the entire fucking place and hexed enemies in fights. Didn't bother using FoD to steal kills because I'm not a dick when I support.
if ur not using fod to "steal" kills then u will never get blink or any other surivability items aka ur 2 hit kill to any decent carry / mid hero
^But if you do, your carry will never get whatever he farms now.
I think, any item you buy on support has ~0,01% impact on game result, so let carry farm.
gg i love you with all my hearth and u gave me best tips EU, looking forward playing with you boddy m8. love you msg me
max shackles first = autism
max nuke first almost always
the chances of you channeling shackles for 5 seconds is fucking abysmal, the chances of you nuking 2-5 heroes and doing more damage than a finger of death is high
shackles ss = no slow/silence drow = all stats heroes
all builds that drooling retards will defend to the death
"Common knowledge" is abstract concept. I trust pure facts more, and facts say that Shadow Shamans who have 0-4-4-1 ability build at lvl 9 win 1,7% more often.
8,5 seconds disable at lvl 9, just think about it.
these stats include garbage high skill normal skill players, why would you even trust it
non existent in vh
http://dotamax.com/hero/detail/skills/shadow_shaman/?skill=vh
not used even once in competitive
http://www.datdota.com/skill_build.php?hero_skill=27&hero_level=9&skill_type=3&hero=&player=&side=0&patch=0&season=0&event=&team=&prize=0®ion=0&team_opp=&in_wins=0&match_time=0&day_after=&month_after=&year_after=&day_before=&month_before=&year_before=
@Ayumilove
Fucking thanks for those stats. I can't believe I was writing walls of text to explain why Fork is better. It's BASIC DOTA, up until this thread I didn't even know that build (Shackles) was popular.
კომენტარის დასაწერად გაიარეთ ავტორიზაცია.
What do you do as a support once the opposing teams hard carries finish their bkbs (mid to late game). As I support I find it difficult to stay alive because normally I'm targeted first. I can't disable due to the bkb so I try to stay away in order not to die. However, that is not very ineffective since I have 0 game impact. if all I do is kite Any suggestions are welcomed. Thanks