Because then you have mana problems while farming... I always buy bf and then
Late game I sell my bf for my mjolnir. Provides great attk speed and good survivability.
i kept a casual bassilus (u can turn it to RoA) instead of poor man's sheild :p honestly, no mana problems
dude that game went haywire. dont look at that. lots of dumb reasons, but farm was gng fine despite us losing. and the heart was a big mistake
Wow are you serious? http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1143273309. You lost that to a slardar? When you have am,pa,riki,techies. That was a shame 4v5 lost to 1 man carry
ok. topic is on am, not me. i can be good or bad at him, duznt matter. just want to discuss mjolnir am in general. and as i said, dont look at that match
And why do you skipped manta style on some of your games.... Mjolnir is bad for early game it's only good once oh have heart,abyss,butterfly etc
manta shud be made on AM, ur right. However, I rush mjolnir as the first item bcuz i use it like bf, for farming. I can go maelstrom into manta however, and then mjol. that cud be betr
there is no comparison between the two items on AM. In fact, battlefury on AM is BARELY enough mana regen to keep him going, if he has the space to farm he can actually start to run out of mana in just a few minutes with battlefury. There is no chance that a casual RoB would get the job done. This doesn't account for the fact that battlefury is cheaper and is a decent source of HP regen to negate any damage taken from creeps.
i see. btw i did see a vlads into mjolnir instead of battlefury AM in starladder. He went on to win the match. Cant remember who did it tho. will check that out
"Guys why isnt mjolnir antimage over battlefury AM a thing? I tried it and results were good. "
5 - 12 antimage
good results? enough said
Why cause you wanted people to agree with your build but they won't?
1. Consider you're a normal skill player and any "ideas" you think are great probably aren't
2. Battlefury is core on AM for multiple reasons these include, flash farming, regen which are things the mjollnir doesn't give.
3. Look at your AM games and tell me that you think that you are good enough with the hero to try alternate builds.
I don't know what you would like to hear? That you found a hidden build for AM that works and we should all use it? I don't know what to say here I really don't.
Examples of alternate builds http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1143230299 I played in your world last night while munching a curry I could have sat on my keyboard and rolled my ass around and still won, people are a joke in that bracket. I believe the 1.8k kotl questioned my build and claimed I was the worst BS he had ever seen and proceeded to ask to 1v1 me. Amazing people, with amazing minds.
no actually I just want a good debate on mjolnir on AM not how bad I am at him. I'm not arguing whether I'm good or bad at him at all. Tokyo Lift gave a good argument. Thats all I wanted. But all ppl do here is falme others. If you look at any of my comments, none of them are arguing about my way playing AM, just how an AM with mjolnir would fare. If u think ur some superheros at ur high skill bracket, plz, keep ur heads in ur asses. I wont be returning to this time waste of a forum
There is no debate, its a less than ideal item on a hero that is already decently hard to get off the ground. I am sure there are 1-2 really high tier people who have played 2-300+ games of AM who do this but again this is because they're super high tier, have good mechanics, can adjust items to games, farm well regardless, win games regardless, and are comfortable with the hero.
Not a good item to buy on Antimage for the average 99% of pub players.
/thread /discussion
Not a good item to buy on Antimage for the average 99% of pub players.
Sorry, but the arguments provided in this thread don't conclude any of this. Maelstrom is fairly cheap and way better in team fights than Battlefury. I'm afraid you guys have a very limited view on the different options. You've been surprised by Maelstrom Void and Maelstrom Furion. With your attitude, you will be surprised very often.
I'm not sure if Maelstrom on AM is a good idea, but it is not nearly as bad as you guys think if you play accordingly.
jesus..smaug, its time you started to play more heroes, or at least pay some attention in your games, there is NO chance that mjol or mael would ever be a better item than battlefury. If you are getting smacked around like crazy, then ok sure, in desperate times you could try to get manta/vang or bkb. Its far from ideal though.
AM is a hero that only farms quickly because of his blink + cleave (or aoe lightning). If you chose lightning in the form of mael, then you can't spam blink, so what have you gained by this? Nothing, you chose a farming item and you can't farm with it..and oh please, Maelstrom is not a cheap item.
One of the biggest reasons that we see more mom + maelstrom on void now as opposed to battlefury is because of the mana reduction on his time walk. In the past, if you used time walk to escape something, you would have to wait for ages to have the mana to use time walk (initiation) + chrono, which made the mana regen from battlefury almost a necessity to play the hero. Now he isn't as limited, and mom + maelstrom is ok because he doesn't need to spam any abilities to farm, and time walk really isn't a farming tool anyway.
AM is a hero that only farms quickly because of his blink + cleave (or aoe lightning). If you chose lightning in the form of mael, then you can't spam blink, so what have you gained by this? Nothing, you chose a farming item and you can't farm with it..and oh please, Maelstrom is not a cheap item.
You talk like farming is the only thing a carry does. People used to farm with Void for 40 minutes before they started fighting, times change. Sure if you only want to farm and get stronger later in the game BF is slightly superior, but if you actually want to fight instead of farming then BF is inferior.
Your problem is that you believe AM could only farm and was bad at fighting. Of course he is bad if you don't buy the appropriate items.
Everybody is impressed now by the Kuroky match where he went maelstrom over battlefury.
To clarify his decision, thing is, they sacrificed AM's early farm to stomp the other 2 lanes and making AM still try and go for battlefury then would have been a burden for the team. The AM needed some fight/farming item really fast so he completed a 10 minute Vlads and treads, then got the maelstrom as a poor man's battlefury to help him clear camps a bit faster with the intention of upgrading it into a Mjollnir later on.
Going for the full mjollnir just for farming purposes isn't a good decision, you get the lightning proc from the maelstorm as well (same chance, same damage) the other 2900 gold you're better off investing into something else like a manta which is core on AM or in 99% of games, dare I say a bit more crucial than battlefury.
In those games where getting battlefury is not quite an option there are other viable items to get such as getting a vanguard if you already got the ring of health and proceed with treads + manta. If the game slows down and your team manages to get an advantage and you still have most of your outer towers up you can still go back for a battlefury just to speed up farm (this is a very rare occasion).
What most people don't understand about AM is that at the end of the day he is just another agility carry that needs big items fast in order to be relevant and help his team win the game. The battlefury is no more than a means to get that heart/abysal/butterfly/mkb to crush your opponents.
The usual brain-dead players going on about their imaginary theories about how maelstorm anti-mage is a good replacement for BF are clearly morons.
In what situation would u ever think about getting rid of ur mana break which is what makes anti-mage, antimage. Maybe I'm bad but ur ulti can clearly do damage with mj :).
Well for starters the mana problems starts with AM ulti which is really a situationnal ulti. Yeah and early maelstrom + vlad is totally legit but also totally situational, as showed kuro in his game. Sometimes, and specially in pub games, you won't get the farm an am is supposed to have, and in that occasions you can go on an early mael.
And i agree you're going to be broke on mana after fights, but it shouldn't be happening too much in your farming stage. Also you'll be way stronger then a tread+bf AM in the early team fights which is never bad in pubs game.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1144854090
Please, just consider. No need to get all worked up. Maelstrom is a decent farming item. Mjolnir is MUCH BETTER than battlefury late game. MUCH MUCH better. Yes, i did hav some mana problems. But it worked out. Mjolnir AM turned out great. whole lot of dps. works betr in pubs than bf
look at the match before commenting
Wow dude, 289 CS in 40 minutes. Lmfao
Do you think that if you went for battle fury, that you would have lost that game? What makes you think that your decision to take mael over bfury was a factor?
Well your match is a huge snowball so I don't think it's really relevant to analyze the impact of a maelstrom build over a bf build.
EDIT : I can suggest this match http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1105275074 where we started really behind. I couldn't farm much in the first 6-7 mins because of how strong are the axe and viper at that stage of the game. We started getting ahead with good teamfights around the 20minute mark which is the usual timing for mael/vlad
I did maelstrom on am a few times to try it out.. It's not as bad as people think but anyway this forum is filled with monkeys. The big issue I find with maelstrom is that you can't farm ancients other than that it's good if let's say you face a trilane and couldnt farm. a 2800 item is faster to get than bfury. Then again I didn't reallly build it many times that I can't actually tell you how to play with it.
But keep in mind am should be 6 slotted at 40 min all the time. Maelstrom won't help you as good as bfury but you can fight more with it.
what are we supposed to see?
-shit farm
-you got carried (in fact, you had the least hero damage)
-incredibly low skill game
nobody is doubting that items DO something. I could get a demon edge first, and it would DO something. The question you need to ask yourself, is whether or not another item would be BETTER. In this case, battlefury is so much better on AM because of the mana regen that it provides that it does not make sense to get maelstrom over it for farming purposes. now if you wanted to fight, then you have the far superior choices in items like manta/vang
editL if you are against a tri-lane your battlefury and maelstrom timings wouldn't be that far off, whenever the lane is pushed with an RoH you could be clearing the easy and/or medium camp instead of sitting around getting 0 gold. Its not just battlefury that is handy, its the build up as well. The last time I was shut out of the lane almost completely I still got battlefury up in 16 minutes, and there is no way that would have happened without the regen from RoH
Early game you were carried by Pudge and mid game FV. You were constantly tailing FV in net worth but the difference was he actually had impact. By 30 min mark you were 3-1-4, lowest in your team. For god's sake you had your first assist at 20 min. Before that your only KDA mark was 1 death. You were also competing for last hits with FV.
It doesn't matter that Mjolnir is much better late game. You don't get BF for late game. You buy it to flash farm and sell it later on unless you need it for special reason. Maelstrom's lightning does 120 dmg with 25% proc chance. On average you proc it every 4th hit. That averages out 40 extra damage. BF gives flat 65 physical damage. You need creep with 10 armor to lower that down to same level with average dmg output of Maelstrom (40 damage). Not to mention Mud Golems or ancients where that magic proc is totally useless. Yes, I know Maelstrom also gives AS and dmg but I'm comparing effectiveness of the cleave here.
With Maelstrom you are gonna need Vlad to counter mana & HP regen problem. Like already mentioned Mael is the go to item if you are gonna teamfight. But like I said you had very low impact to game so essentially you were AFK farming.
I've just tried maelstorm on am (with vlads ofc) and it's not even that bad at all. ( even though i failed very hard and played like a drunk 2k player with 200ms) The thing with maelstorm am is that am is very much like a glasscanon, he does a buttload of rightclick dmg. With early maelstorm + yasha you could easily kill supports in a flash. The farm & pushrate is also decent, the attackspeed really gives am quite some farmspeed. Here is the catch tho, it only works if you have a team that can back you up. It won't be effective on a regular pubgame, where people usually go either rambo 5man or solo.
"Going for the full mjollnir just for farming purposes isn't a good decision, you get the lightning proc from the maelstorm as well (same chance, same damage) the other 2900 gold you're better off investing into something else"
This is so true, maelstrom is never worth upgrading into mjollnir until it's your last slot. Mjollnir hits 8 targets for 200 dmg vs maelstroms 4 for 120 but when farming you never have 8 targets to hit, most is like 5 or 6 on those late game waves. For 2900g you can do much better than the IAS difference. Going crystalis + maelstrom on void is going to be a lot more dmg than just a mjollnir.
just go mealstorm yasha if u rlly cant get battle furry for some reason
What you did wrong tho is, that you went AFK farm instead of fighting with that build.
If you plan on afk farming, go for Battlefury.
If you plan on fighting with your team you could consider vlads, maelstorm, yasha etc, but this only works if your team can back you up. The problem is, that you only have 800HP or so but a lot of rightclick, you can easily start a feeding spree if your team doesn't back you up.
no bf means more time spent farming and mana can be a problem.
am needs lot of farm to be effective
Already been said but, reasons for Battlefury:
-Regen for farming
-Cleave for faster pushing/farming
-Damage for very high potential for doing some stuff 15 minutes in
Meanwhile, the alternative you're suggesting is less dependable for the 2nd and 3rd while not providing any regen for farming/pushing. It basically very much slows his speedy progression in the early-mid game.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1138728461
I don't intend to say I'm great at this game (this was Unranked, but my Ranked is 4k), but I'm allowed to say at least in this case I may know better than you. Listen to the people above; they know what they're talking about.
I don't think people here are saying mael is better then bf (at least i'm not), but it's a situationnal build for people that are facing a very agressive comp.
If the enemy teams try to end up the game before 30 mins, a bf am is just pure nonsense imo
If you want to go for a fighting build instead of farming build why don't you go PT Vanguard Yasha (optional Crimson) Manta?
"If the enemy teams try to end up the game before 30 mins, a bf am is just pure nonsense imo"
I think if you end up playing AM against this kind of team you have bigger problems.
AM is a fairly rigid hero and there are other options if you want to buy Maelstrom honestly. You get the battlefury because of the cleave, but one of the major reasons you get it is also for the ring of health, because he has no lane sustainablility. Going Maelstrom implies that you are getting another item as well to keep you in lane, whether that be a Vlads or Vanguard... so if you were deadset on going a Maelstrom quickly in your game, I'd pick a game where you can win mid with AM and secure runes with bottle + blink.
its funny because maelstrom costs 2/3 of what battlefury does and cripples his farm
u pick antimage to farm, mjollnir doesnt work with it unelss you get vlads and even then it doesnt farm anywhere near as fast just because of regen. its a lot better fighting item than bf is and i actually think it suits some players playstyles a lot better because i see people take antimage and start fighting with a bfury yasha when the jungle is empty and theres nothing happening
"People here are monkeys conforming to the meta build, but conform to my build, which has exactly 2 games played in normal skill as proof opposed to the millions of AM games with bfury."
Oh really ? BF build is better then mael build ? Thanks captain obvious, it was deeply needed... Of course the bf am is theorically better, because you'd have picked am in a team with a slow tempo with supports around that helps you play or if you're playing high end ranked. If you want to talk about theorycrafting like that, i don't think dotabuff is the site to go, as it's really meant to help pubs players. I'd suggest you to go to liquiddota, where you can find people talking about optimals only build.
As most of dotabuff players play alone in pubs, you kind of want to be prepared to play alone, and thus adjusting your playstyle.
Btw, i don't recall who said that mael cripples am farms compared to bf, but i invite him to try the "less-than-a-minute" run in the jungle at lvl 11 with treads and bf and colmpare it to the same run with treads mael and vad. For those too lazy to try, the bf am ends up low life with barely 50 more mana then the mael am who did it in a few seconds more.
You don't have time in any case to farm the ancien in a minute (and you would die of it if you were the bf am). Also, bf really pays off when it comes to creep stacks. And as it is fairly rare in pubs games to see stacks, and as in those games you're going to be required in team fights early in the game, even if you just draw some big cds and blinks out, i feel like going mael/vlad and then yasha/bash into manta/abyssal (edit: squeeze a tarrasque into that ofc) can be a good build.
That's also why the bf builds will always be better in high level games, because people tend to helps the am farming and then bf helps you wreck the farming phase.
You are just talking shit now. I mean fucking think about it. You CANT jungle with maelstrom. You don't have the regen. I mean if things are tough in the lane, how the fk do you build maelstrom anyway?
The benefit of battle fury is not just in it's final product, the RoH is very handy.
So your choices are vlads first -> maelstrom OR just battlefury. There is almost no situation in which a vlads first or maelstrom build will be a good choice. If things are going to the shitter and you need to fight, you get vanguard + yasha/ manta. Otherwise just get battlefury
i can see vlads mjollnir working out, honestly, but a very situational thing.
kinda forces you to get a bkb too because you are optimized for hitting heroes over creeps, and increases the value of SnY over Manta.
კომენტარის დასაწერად გაიარეთ ავტორიზაცია.
Guys why isnt mjolnir antimage over battlefury AM a thing? I tried it and results were good. Not only is the creepwave clear good, but mjolnir scales superbly in the late game with the high attack speed, synchronizing well with basher/abysal. Ofcourse, you loose ur mana break on the hit when chain lightning procs, but you could give that up for mjolnir's other obvious advantages over battlefury right? I mean, while pa and void can use bf well in team fights, dealing massive cleave damage across enemies, i dnt think AM reaches that level of cleave damage...