It gives all around stats, especially for a str hero. On lifestealer in particular it provides a snare, because his ability one is very short, movement speed to stack with phase boots, hp and dmg. It's a very good item.
On other carries they might simply need the hp before being able to complete manta. I've seen it suggested on sniper for example.
Basher isn't really better for lockdown, once out of a stun if you are slowed they can run. It's probably better than sange alone but sange and yasha gives that uber move speed.
Move speed on a slow hero. It goes from 10% Move speed increase to 16% move speed increase combining the two which is huge. Plus the "greater maim" that it gives on the sange portion.
I think its a great start item, and then break it apart later for Manta/Heavens halberd for heros later to be 6 slotted if possible. If its on an AGI. at least the heavens halberd gives you that passive evasion and right click disable on a hero. If youre a STR hero, you get the illusions and sacrifice 6% move speed but keep 10% move speed from the item.
Think of it this way also. If you grab it on an AGI. hero and go Sange/Yasha the 16 STR calcs out to 304 extra hp. A lot of AGI. heros are lacking in the HP department. Its a good option so you don't have to be forced to use another slot for a vanguard which costs just as much as the sange, and provides less HP. Or you don't want to go heart, and prefer to get a disable item so you keep the sange/yasha until you disassemble into heavens halberd for evasion and keep the STR/Health bonus from it.
Great item on Naix though.
^ and it is relatively cheap.
^ and it is VERY SMOOTH to build / assemble. i mean not like radiance need 3800 for the first item. thus good early till mid.
^ and it can dissembled later and build into manta and halberd. i do this often on spec and riki. if halberd is not needed sell the sange for 1000 gold. lose 1000 gold is ok late game.
![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
I love sny. When I was learning the ropes of Dota 1, my friend who was "good" (relative to all of us learning), said that sny is a good pick up on pretty much every hero. Because of this I'm pretty bias towards the item.
It's a great build up item, so the parts can be used earlier in the game than other items. It gives a nice chunk of HP and the MS bonus is the best part about the item. At 4100, it allows heroes to hit the mid game harder earlier, which is important since the 6.79 patch.
"Best Ability Draft item ever."
^THIS, my first item on almost every crazy hero i do in ability draft.
^ agreed. if you want hp recovery. salve is better than tango. so dont buy tango ever ?
cost - effective is the key.
every item in dota exit for a reason.
My personal opinion on SnY - 7/10 item. An all-round decent stats and +MS/AS are nice. The main part, though, is the Maim that goes through magic immunity, making it an good pickup for most ranged agi semi-carries.
SnY is not very good... but it also doesn't cost very much. If you want to fight soon and won't have time to farm a better item, SnY might be the way to go. I pretty much never get it unless I am losing.
SnY can be disassembeld. If you are going to make HH and/or manta but don't have the farm yet you can make SnY and fix it later.
To me it's simply a solid, well-rounded item for any Strength or Agility hero to pick up. Gives nice stats, is pretty easy to make, and can be disassembled for other items you may need later. It's essentially a jack-of-all-trades (but master of none) item.
good midgame item, easy to build, even the components are useful if the full item is not complete. good on agis to tank up and decent damage + attack speed, good on str for the same reasons.
if your hero doesn't need BKB, then it could be worth getting, since BKB and SNY are similar in cost, which is probably why people dislike SNY, they'd much rather have magic immunity, it's an item where it's obvious that it's working, whereas SNY does its work in the background and you don't really notice it's benefits. I don't think there's even a visual cue for the maim, unlike skadi for example
^ this
AND since in dota 2 you build items to improve a specific advantage your hero has, i think S&Y is trash.
the same people who say vangard is trash are the same people who say S&Y is trash. Those people are inexperienced idiots who do not understand the complexity of dota. These items are not the BEST IN ALL SITUATIONS but they are great items in specific situations.
SnY is very good for maintaining an advantage on heroes that are strong early by virtue of their skillset alone. Examples are Riki and TA. It is a good item when you are either very ahead or looking to catch up.
Loda gets SnY on Riki just about every game too.
Not necessarily, people sometimes build Drum of Endurance as a first item on certain agility carries to make up for their low strength early on, which is a weakness, not an advantage. It also boosts their normally weak mana pools, again not an advantage.
Yes, Drums is an item that is more defensive in nature.
But SnY is a far more offensive item. This is the item to get on TA when you want to snowball heavily mid game or Rikimaru if you plan on roaming non-stop instead of sitting in one lane and farming. It's great on Lifestealer when you want to force fights mid-game or go for early pushes. It's decent on an aggressive Doom once he has an item addressing his armour/mana issues.
Oh i didnt know another people build SnY on TA i felt bad because i see people building manta on TA but i really like sangue and yasha instead of manta on her.
Manta is a defensive item on any hero that doesn't build specifically for stats such as Naga, PL and TB. The illusions only do 28% damage for ranged and without any of the damage boosts from most items.
SnY on the hand lets you press an advantage better by letting you chase further for kills and maintaining more presence on the map. Manta on TA is actually pretty lackluster unless you have opponents like Bat, Legion, Bane, Pudge or Doom where a well-timed Manta can screw up their single-target initiation.
It's good for someone who doesn't know what to build in their hero or the hero's main stats, so they prefer item like SnY or skadi who add every stats which of course is not cost effective. It's kind of typical brute force item choice that doesn't require much thought,
But really if you have a farming skill like top class carry, item choice that only add a little advantage like this won't really matter. Like one time in tournament when XBOCT played spectre, he bought SnY and skadi at the first place and sold both of them for diffusal and heart
It's used to be a very mediocre item along with vanguard & skadi until icefrog buffed it at 6.79 (eventhough people still built it before that patch ) but still i won't recommend building it at every hero.
My advice is rather than spending time thinking for something like this better spend more time on practicing and analysing lane control and farming ability as a carry
Loda has the farming skill of a top class carry, yet gets SnY on Lifestealer in more than half of his games.
Maybe you would like to put forward a case where Loda isn't necessarily the best Lifestealer player and is as such a bad example?
How about Era?
The point is that SnY is a great item if you know when to get it. Building it blindly on every Str/Agi hero is of course a dumb decision, but it really is an item with a lot of merits.
Loda isn't top class lifestealer player. Even before he didn't make armlet as lifestealer which i think is a "must have" item on him. Not counting his almost 0% winrate as slardar in tournament since he builds vanguard every game with him. I prefer Era overall sry :p
Sometimes Era built manta style in serious tournament too, even though he prefer to build sange and yasha on lifestealer. Not saying SnY is bad. But in my opinion manta style is much better choice for most hero. Bad thing about manta is probably it has too much extra 10 int and 10 agi that not necessary for hero like lifestealer, But not to forget this item also allow you to pop up illusion, debuff, avoid spells and has more pushing ability too
S&Y is at best a situational item pick-up. It is only viable as a core item on heroes which are
1. Not bkb reliant
2. Have the raw dmg to chase down heroes
3. Complimentary to a phase rush high mobility team lineup
@Yfay
Your point was about the farming skill of a top class carry, not a top class Lifestealer. This is not considering that Loda outclasses Era on Lifestealer in winrate, GPM and XPM when comparing both their competitive histories. I concede that Era is more renowned overall for his Lifestealer, and if adjusted for Fnatic/Alliance's win rates we might see a different story, but Loda is still easily one of the best Lifestealer players in the world. I don't see how bringing up Slardar is relevant either.
And if you choose to argue that Loda isn't a top class carry... then I would rather not bother arguing with you.
S&Y
- 6% more movespeed.
- ~100 more HP.
- 1000 gold cheaper.
- Maim passive. Goes through BKB and full effectiveness on ranged heroes.
Manta
- More DPS.
- More pushing power.
- Active gets you out of some disables.
IMO unless I'm playing a hero that can take advantage of the extra illusions like PL, Naga, AM, etc. or are playing against heroes whose skills lose effectiveness against Manta (Lich ult, WD Cask) or are completely negated by it (CM frostbite) I feel like S&Y is the superior pickup if you've already built a Yasha in the earlygame. Lategame Manta becomes an increasingly better option due to more Agi from levels and items.
mimimimimimi
tl:dr in this post >SnY=fast , situational, must think before buying.
Like sampson is saying the same people hating SnY is the people who hates vanguard, and the reasonS for the hate is :
1) because in they pubs every peruvian and russian out there build vanguard and SnY in every hero
2) because another dota players have tell them to hate the item.
sange and yasha is more of and mid game item while manta scales up to late game :)
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I always build S+Y on spirit breaker, movespeed = more bash damage, the extra agility and attack speed really helps since his BAT nerf, and the slow is generally useful in addition to the bashes to ensure you can always just punch them to death. I feel as though S+Y is a rather good item for many heroes who focus on mobility/movespeed (such as bloodseeker, slark, SB etc), and helps such heroes to tank up due to BS and Slark having a relatively low healthpool
A lot of items people build are jack of all trades types. Like drums, wand even, skadi is you want to go there.
I also think manta is extremely overrated. I only build it on heroes that sync well with illusions like PL, AM, Luna, Spectre. My friend builds it all the time on Razor and I'm like why just build a S&Y, cheaper and the illusions suck on razor. People overrate manta, it's not for every agi hero.
@ KawaiiSocks
Didn't know maim went through magic immunity. Good to know on a heavy bkb team, or omni knight team.
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Ok, so what's the point of this item?
If you want damage, manta is better.
If you want lockdown, basher is better.
I mean, i can't really see it's use. I see it being picked up on lifestealer on pro games, but i don't really see the point.
Just wanted some insight as to this item's usefulness.