What's you guys' opinion of getting it on Warlock? I've stumbled upon them a few times, but never actually tried it, because it'd take the fun away of an already hard-to-get-a-lot-of-fun-while-playing hero.
Of course, we all know that the purpose of Midas Warlock is getting a fast 4 golems combo, but is it worth it to take the risk?
Mek, Pipe and wards can be provided by a second support and an utility farmer. Him getting a Midas does not actually "delay a core" that much and provided that the other heroes can get the team items, his impact will still be good as all his spells are very strong in teamfights and don't depend on him getting X item.
The downside to it is that Warlock naturally sucks at farming (No AoE except for ulti and it's preferable to not waste his bonds to farm), so the attack speed won't help much and the amount of gold he gets depends a lot on him not dying in teamfights, golem kills, assists and managing to make the golem survive after the skirmishes to farm creeps, get a tower or jungle with it.
But still, on one hand, if coordinated well enough, it does seem that getting a Midas does not actually hinder his teamfight presence (even though he would likely turn into an even more desired target for burst damage) and has the potential of turning his already good impact (provided that he plays decently) into a beast of an impact. On the other hand, if the team is coordinated enough to actually let Warlock get a Midas and then rush the Aghanims + Refresher, it seems they would have won anyway, 4 golems or not.
But keep in mind perseverance has 65% win for WL and costs less.
All time WL won 59% of Hand of Midas games (over 1 million attempts total). So the nerf to HoM really did knock 3% off his use of it.
The best way to not be burst down on WL is to just not be visible and take no dmg until after you have cast ult and fatal bonds combo. This is probably one of the better Hand of Midas heroes. WL is one of the few where it might be a good pick up in some games. Getting to level 11 and level 16 a bit faster can be a big deal for WL.
Statistics without interpretation mean nothing, Relentless. Perseverance isn't gonna help you win more than Midas. That winrate is high simply because people build Refresher and sometimes the game ends before finishing it, thus you have a Persev in your inventory. Simple as that.
The midas nerf was extremely big even if it doesn't look so (what's 150 gold right?)
But in reality what the 150 gold increased cost does is this:
1) you need an additional 30 sec - 1 min to get midas
2) the 150 gold cost basically negates your first midas use, what i mean is now if you got midas at 5 min and used it it's like you got it at 6:40 last version
So basically if you would get a 5 minute midas in 6.78, now you'd get it at 5:30 (or even 6 if mid) and after the first use you'd negate the price nerf and have the 6.78 version of midas at like 7:10.
The item has been nerfed by like 2 minutes which is already huge enough, but when you realize what also happened is a plethora of changes that nerfed the safelane and you don't see carries having perfect farm while the offlaner is completely zoned out meaning that it really is even more than 2 minutes.
The real hard carries have faded from existence for now, heroes like medusa/void/am/pl seem pretty obsolete and the game is ruled by slarks, embers, weavers, storms and other heroes that peak midgame. Being useless and losing towers because you got a midas and your team can't handle it (this is amplified in solo queue pubs) will lose you way, way more games than the bonus 1000-2000 gold the midas nets you if the game makes it late will win.
I was already buying it very rarely on a limited set of heroes but right now I wouldn't get on more than a few. Heroes like furion, syllabear, dk will always be viable with midas due to being useful early game heroes even with nothing but boots and midas in their inventory, the other ones not so much
I Buy it as a carry with first blood or as natures prophet,
Also midas is beneficial if you die, the quick use once you respawn helps a lot for the time missed while dead
I think midas is always beneficial on someone who stays in lane, like brood,
first item/ rushed midas has been considered rather bad for a while now unless you have a completely empty lane
im actually rather happy when i see my carry having a midas because having a midas impacts decision making and often forces them to farm for a while which is a lot better than the 10 min bopping creeps challenge and then running around all over the map thinking that he has to run at nerds while not achieving anything
Passive bot match, armlet and treads at 11:30 in my inventory, no towers taken, no rune use. I was probably remembering matches where towers fell for 10 mins but my original posts I said 10-12 mins so there you go.
I did another one going midas first, had midas, treads and armlet around 15:30. 4 mins to start pushing doesn't seem like much but it's a pretty big difference and going midas first means you have gauntlets of speed those first 7 mins and that's it so you are super easy to gank. Jungling is always vulnerable to ganks anyway but with rage and treads you can usually escape. Going midas first makes you even more vulnerable.
I think people underestimate naix's jungle capabilities, he's certainly as capable as doom, better at lvl 1 than lycan and axe, who both suck in jungle imo but people still jungle them at 1.
Calculation is flawed.
(82+72+58+77+104)/5= Average lost bounty of 79.6g
190-79.6= 110.4 Gold gained per 100 seconds (If the Midas is used on cooldown)
You don't minus the 79.6g here, note that midas is instant kill, so you won't spend time killing this unit.
The right way to use midas is before hitting your desirable level, for most instance 16, you will use it on a big neutral which usually takes several seconds to kill especially in the early game, after which you will use it on the weakest creep possible unless you still want the additional xp bonus or you take extremely long to kill a big neutral.
Since midas don't require time to kill, i will use the full 190 gold for calculation. Although it has a 100s cooldown, not everyone actually use it the moment it is off cooldown so i'll assume 120s on average before each usage interval, hence midas actually gives approximately 95 gold per minute. (190/120*60)
2050 / 95 = ~22 minutes to earn back 2050 with transmute and not 30 minutes
Also, midas provides a decent amount of additional xp, as well as the fact that transmute provides RELIABLE gold.
If u are in jungle you can get Midas by 6 on most heros and by 4 or 5 with NP if played efficient and by 8 or 9 minutes you will be 2 levels ahead of others in lane (except one of the mid in most cases) . This gives an immense potential to own the mid game. If u see my profile i hav bought Midas for most of the heroes and it works like a charm. Especially for Lifestealer and NP the level advantage works so good. Also on carries tht require immense farm like medusa. For characters like LC who have the need to hit 16 faster, there is no easy way of doing it than Midas. I have clearly felt the difference in games where i failed to get midas.
Conclusion: Level advantage in mid game always pays off.
News flash- midas isn't a farming item, doesn't help medusa at all. You're forgetting that going midas first gives you levels and eventually pays for itself but it delays other items which help you farm gold as well. It's like going midas and then battlefury on anti mage- you just delayed battlefury by ~6-8 mins or whatever and battlefury helps your gold farm a shitload more than midas does. Midas is only good for a select few heroes that really need levels more than gold. Lifestealer isn't one of them. Nature's prophet is like the only one who consistently needs it.
I really think it is situational for heros to go this route. I agree on the part that Naix/Furion it is really necessary (I play Doom with it on there as well to clear camps really fast and snowballs quickly for lvls and clearing camps)
The situations for the games above were: I drew first blood. I grabbed it before 6 min into the game (soul ring before, no brown boots)
If the game is going past the 10 min mark Hand of midas carry or not is a poor choice.
Whoji you are forgetting the opportunity cost. Relentless had a good analysis, in that the real cost of midas is in the items you could have gotten instead, and the missed ganks and early game activity which would have been aided by having earlier core items and better early game kill/push/fight/gank strength
Midas costs you a midgame item, but gives you exp advantage. If you need that on a lvl reliable hero (like Invoker, etc), then take it, otherwise not. Someone said nicely in one of the topics like that: "Either you get it fast, or you dont get it at all".
Someone mentioned that on an enemy creep you do not gain the 2.5x experience gain. Is it only on neutrals? It doesn't state that on the item itself. Can someone confirm/deny that? I find it nice to not have to go in the jungle all the time to grab a beefy creep with the Hand of Midas, so you can keep the use time up on it.
Yes, opportunity costs is a perfect way to describe it. I just can't seem to pound this through my friend's heads enough, they keeping going midas + battlefury on carrys cus "I need farm to carry late" when I try to explain why we're getting stomped mid game.
Wow BF and HOM I mean that is super turtle mode. Thats almost like saying "hey guys see you in a half an hour after I'm done jungling. Good luck with the 4v5 fights!. I've done it on Alchemist when you could stack ancients LVL 1 with poison and grab Soul ring first, then HOM then BF and come out in 25 minutes after stacking ancients and going to lane to grab a quick HOM creep consumption. What a huge gamble though.... if the other team is smart enough to smell that jungle turd youre brewing they will punish you in the jungle. Not viable in higher ranked game...
Midas does give you an exp advantage, but had you gotten boots and another early game item, you could have gotten exp from kills and ganks while at the same time hurting the enemy. The midas makes it harder to gank and have any earlier game presence. Obv on some heroes it it good, especially carries who will sit in lane anyways. But on heroes like junglers (not furion maybe) who could otherwise be ganking more, I would say the exp advantage is dimished by the decreased ability to gank and get yourself experience while shutting down enemies as well.
values are wrong... ur not counting with the gold u get even while not killing creeps on time to get the midas. And there are other things that might be considered, like the unrelieble/relieble gold mechanism, and the farm booster that a bonus xp and atk speed gives to u.
In time, another mistake, ur considering that when u use the midas u get the bounty bonus - gold the creep would give anyway, but ur not considering that the midas instakill the creep. Imagine how long u would take to kill a big creep with an earthshaker, for example... time is gold!
What's you guys' opinion of getting it on Warlock? I've stumbled upon them a few times, but never actually tried it, because it'd take the fun away of an already hard-to-get-a-lot-of-fun-while-playing hero.
Of course, we all know that the purpose of Midas Warlock is getting a fast 4 golems combo, but is it worth it to take the risk?
Mek, Pipe and wards can be provided by a second support and an utility farmer. Him getting a Midas does not actually "delay a core" that much and provided that the other heroes can get the team items, his impact will still be good as all his spells are very strong in teamfights and don't depend on him getting X item.
The downside to it is that Warlock naturally sucks at farming (No AoE except for ulti and it's preferable to not waste his bonds to farm), so the attack speed won't help much and the amount of gold he gets depends a lot on him not dying in teamfights, golem kills, assists and managing to make the golem survive after the skirmishes to farm creeps, get a tower or jungle with it.
But still, on one hand, if coordinated well enough, it does seem that getting a Midas does not actually hinder his teamfight presence (even though he would likely turn into an even more desired target for burst damage) and has the potential of turning his already good impact (provided that he plays decently) into a beast of an impact. On the other hand, if the team is coordinated enough to actually let Warlock get a Midas and then rush the Aghanims + Refresher, it seems they would have won anyway, 4 golems or not.
This Month there were 155k WL who got Hand of Midas. They did 1% better than the overall average. 55% win --> 56% win.
http://dotabuff.com/heroes/warlock/items?date=month
But keep in mind perseverance has 65% win for WL and costs less.
All time WL won 59% of Hand of Midas games (over 1 million attempts total). So the nerf to HoM really did knock 3% off his use of it.
The best way to not be burst down on WL is to just not be visible and take no dmg until after you have cast ult and fatal bonds combo. This is probably one of the better Hand of Midas heroes. WL is one of the few where it might be a good pick up in some games. Getting to level 11 and level 16 a bit faster can be a big deal for WL.
Statistics without interpretation mean nothing, Relentless. Perseverance isn't gonna help you win more than Midas. That winrate is high simply because people build Refresher and sometimes the game ends before finishing it, thus you have a Persev in your inventory. Simple as that.
^ I agree. That's my point. Even a naked perseverance looks good on him. Maybe I should have just said it more obviously.
The midas nerf was extremely big even if it doesn't look so (what's 150 gold right?)
But in reality what the 150 gold increased cost does is this:
1) you need an additional 30 sec - 1 min to get midas
2) the 150 gold cost basically negates your first midas use, what i mean is now if you got midas at 5 min and used it it's like you got it at 6:40 last version
So basically if you would get a 5 minute midas in 6.78, now you'd get it at 5:30 (or even 6 if mid) and after the first use you'd negate the price nerf and have the 6.78 version of midas at like 7:10.
The item has been nerfed by like 2 minutes which is already huge enough, but when you realize what also happened is a plethora of changes that nerfed the safelane and you don't see carries having perfect farm while the offlaner is completely zoned out meaning that it really is even more than 2 minutes.
The real hard carries have faded from existence for now, heroes like medusa/void/am/pl seem pretty obsolete and the game is ruled by slarks, embers, weavers, storms and other heroes that peak midgame. Being useless and losing towers because you got a midas and your team can't handle it (this is amplified in solo queue pubs) will lose you way, way more games than the bonus 1000-2000 gold the midas nets you if the game makes it late will win.
I was already buying it very rarely on a limited set of heroes but right now I wouldn't get on more than a few. Heroes like furion, syllabear, dk will always be viable with midas due to being useful early game heroes even with nothing but boots and midas in their inventory, the other ones not so much
I Buy it as a carry with first blood or as natures prophet,
Also midas is beneficial if you die, the quick use once you respawn helps a lot for the time missed while dead
I think midas is always beneficial on someone who stays in lane, like brood,
first item/ rushed midas has been considered rather bad for a while now unless you have a completely empty lane
im actually rather happy when i see my carry having a midas because having a midas impacts decision making and often forces them to farm for a while which is a lot better than the 10 min bopping creeps challenge and then running around all over the map thinking that he has to run at nerds while not achieving anything
i don't like this item >.<
i recommend all to buy midas every game on every hero =]
Passive bot match, armlet and treads at 11:30 in my inventory, no towers taken, no rune use. I was probably remembering matches where towers fell for 10 mins but my original posts I said 10-12 mins so there you go.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/819/nuu9.jpg
I did another one going midas first, had midas, treads and armlet around 15:30. 4 mins to start pushing doesn't seem like much but it's a pretty big difference and going midas first means you have gauntlets of speed those first 7 mins and that's it so you are super easy to gank. Jungling is always vulnerable to ganks anyway but with rage and treads you can usually escape. Going midas first makes you even more vulnerable.
I think people underestimate naix's jungle capabilities, he's certainly as capable as doom, better at lvl 1 than lycan and axe, who both suck in jungle imo but people still jungle them at 1.
Calculation is flawed.
(82+72+58+77+104)/5= Average lost bounty of 79.6g
190-79.6= 110.4 Gold gained per 100 seconds (If the Midas is used on cooldown)
You don't minus the 79.6g here, note that midas is instant kill, so you won't spend time killing this unit.
The right way to use midas is before hitting your desirable level, for most instance 16, you will use it on a big neutral which usually takes several seconds to kill especially in the early game, after which you will use it on the weakest creep possible unless you still want the additional xp bonus or you take extremely long to kill a big neutral.
Since midas don't require time to kill, i will use the full 190 gold for calculation. Although it has a 100s cooldown, not everyone actually use it the moment it is off cooldown so i'll assume 120s on average before each usage interval, hence midas actually gives approximately 95 gold per minute. (190/120*60)
2050 / 95 = ~22 minutes to earn back 2050 with transmute and not 30 minutes
Also, midas provides a decent amount of additional xp, as well as the fact that transmute provides RELIABLE gold.
If u are in jungle you can get Midas by 6 on most heros and by 4 or 5 with NP if played efficient and by 8 or 9 minutes you will be 2 levels ahead of others in lane (except one of the mid in most cases) . This gives an immense potential to own the mid game. If u see my profile i hav bought Midas for most of the heroes and it works like a charm. Especially for Lifestealer and NP the level advantage works so good. Also on carries tht require immense farm like medusa. For characters like LC who have the need to hit 16 faster, there is no easy way of doing it than Midas. I have clearly felt the difference in games where i failed to get midas.
Conclusion: Level advantage in mid game always pays off.
News flash- midas isn't a farming item, doesn't help medusa at all. You're forgetting that going midas first gives you levels and eventually pays for itself but it delays other items which help you farm gold as well. It's like going midas and then battlefury on anti mage- you just delayed battlefury by ~6-8 mins or whatever and battlefury helps your gold farm a shitload more than midas does. Midas is only good for a select few heroes that really need levels more than gold. Lifestealer isn't one of them. Nature's prophet is like the only one who consistently needs it.
A dazzle Hand of Midas go: http://dotabuff.com/matches/488953942 and http://dotabuff.com/matches/488843003 just for fun. I felt it impeded my ability to carry Tps/wards/dust etc. on one game, but gave me that boost to go double boots (Mana/TP boots) quickly.
I really think it is situational for heros to go this route. I agree on the part that Naix/Furion it is really necessary (I play Doom with it on there as well to clear camps really fast and snowballs quickly for lvls and clearing camps)
The situations for the games above were: I drew first blood. I grabbed it before 6 min into the game (soul ring before, no brown boots)
If the game is going past the 10 min mark Hand of midas carry or not is a poor choice.
op is wrong here: 2050/110.4= 18.57 uses
you can sell it for 1025.
so should be 1025/110.4 = 9.235 uses.
9.235*100 seconds= 15.5 minutes. so if the game is long than 25 minutes. it definitely worth getting a midas.
besides. in those high level games / pro games, there always is chen, use midas to eat his baby centuar is satisfying.
Whoji you are forgetting the opportunity cost. Relentless had a good analysis, in that the real cost of midas is in the items you could have gotten instead, and the missed ganks and early game activity which would have been aided by having earlier core items and better early game kill/push/fight/gank strength
Midas costs you a midgame item, but gives you exp advantage. If you need that on a lvl reliable hero (like Invoker, etc), then take it, otherwise not. Someone said nicely in one of the topics like that: "Either you get it fast, or you dont get it at all".
Someone mentioned that on an enemy creep you do not gain the 2.5x experience gain. Is it only on neutrals? It doesn't state that on the item itself. Can someone confirm/deny that? I find it nice to not have to go in the jungle all the time to grab a beefy creep with the Hand of Midas, so you can keep the use time up on it.
Yes, opportunity costs is a perfect way to describe it. I just can't seem to pound this through my friend's heads enough, they keeping going midas + battlefury on carrys cus "I need farm to carry late" when I try to explain why we're getting stomped mid game.
@ Let the Wookie Win
Wow BF and HOM I mean that is super turtle mode. Thats almost like saying "hey guys see you in a half an hour after I'm done jungling. Good luck with the 4v5 fights!. I've done it on Alchemist when you could stack ancients LVL 1 with poison and grab Soul ring first, then HOM then BF and come out in 25 minutes after stacking ancients and going to lane to grab a quick HOM creep consumption. What a huge gamble though.... if the other team is smart enough to smell that jungle turd youre brewing they will punish you in the jungle. Not viable in higher ranked game...
Midas does give you an exp advantage, but had you gotten boots and another early game item, you could have gotten exp from kills and ganks while at the same time hurting the enemy. The midas makes it harder to gank and have any earlier game presence. Obv on some heroes it it good, especially carries who will sit in lane anyways. But on heroes like junglers (not furion maybe) who could otherwise be ganking more, I would say the exp advantage is dimished by the decreased ability to gank and get yourself experience while shutting down enemies as well.
values are wrong... ur not counting with the gold u get even while not killing creeps on time to get the midas. And there are other things that might be considered, like the unrelieble/relieble gold mechanism, and the farm booster that a bonus xp and atk speed gives to u.
In time, another mistake, ur considering that when u use the midas u get the bounty bonus - gold the creep would give anyway, but ur not considering that the midas instakill the creep. Imagine how long u would take to kill a big creep with an earthshaker, for example... time is gold!