@ Outworldzilla, I'm not suggesting you buy midas instead of wards. I'm asking if a 4 role support can keep wards and what nots (The support items required to keep the carry safe, dewarding if needed, smoke if asked for, tps for you always, and the carry if asked for, vision in required areas and what not, while maintaining lane presence.... ) If all that is met, should there be a reason I can't buy it? Aside the 15 min mark.
Obviously, if I see a chen + X random pushy hero or some indication of hard lane aggression, I will just abandon the idea as it wont pay off and the risk factor is too clear. If the pushing strat is viable or becomes visible you just dump the midas idea...
It's about keeping support items up, and getting midas before something such as drums on CM or what not. That's the debate I'm having.
Don't think about it in terms of XX:XX time into a game. Think about it in terms of how long it will be until you need X item. The calculus for this is not the same for a support as for a carry. Really getting midas on a support will usually make more sense than getting it on a carry. Carries just tend to get them more because they are far more likely to have gold.
If you want to game to go late, have enough gold after wards, and have not yet reached your level 2 ult... then midas could be a very good investment. I should probably get it more, but I was not thinking about the numbers correctly from a support perspective until a few pros started picking midas up and I wanted to know why.
If a support typically gets 1 or 2 cs per minute midas makes a huge difference. While on a carry that takes 8 to 10 cs per min its only a nice bonus, but not enormous. If you plan to take the major teamfights of the game 10 or 20 min from NOW, now being the time you might buy the midas, then you will break even for the 10 min period and be a full extra item ahead for the 20 min period. If you are a support on a defensive team that wants to win the game around 40, 50, or 60 minutes when your late game carry is really powerful then midas could mean you go into that late game fight as a CM who can bkb ult for a full duration, still be alive, and cast a hex after the enemy carry bkb ends... that is a game winning move.
Just keep in mind Midas is a situational item and the right situation to get it is for turtling. If you need to fight soon to win the game. Midas is going to lose it.
For the record, midas can be just as bad on hard carry heroes.
I always lose when i go midas on Luna. I have come to realize (at least for me) that luna needs too many mid tier items (HoD, BKB, maybe aquila) and the midas ends up making me useless at the end of the mid game. When i should just have a HoD and be using the early domination to stack ancients and already have my BKB, instead I got a midas and am just finishing a HoD. Without that mid game power, he ulti cant be use when it is strongest. just an observation i had...
Sometimes i feel it can suck on alchemist as well, as he could have just powered out a shadow blade and started being involved. What LD will refer to as a "fighting alchemist" but not as much as luna. Same can be said for a lifestealer rushing phase/drums.
Conversly, on Blinkz clinkz, the midas allows you to basically ignore lane farm and just live in the enemy jungle and sustain level/farm.
i don't really suggest it tbh..
why do you still insist to sacrifice early advantage just for midas
i know jungle pulling is nerfed but i rarely seen jungle pulling support even in the featured dotatv
i've seen many team went this strat even Na'Vi and get punished for it
@智子 likes wards
on the contrary mate, if you see chen/enchantress it's time to buy 5 midas,
why say otherwise?
If you don't need the mek then it was worth it. You didn't use it for a major fight, so a midas may have been the better choice. There is always risk involved, but that risk can be mitigated through teamwork.
For very advanced players, certain actions that are almost always correct for less skilled players may not be correct for top tier teams (and visa versa). An example is warding. Merlini will tell you that if you don't need to ward a location, then don't do it. Its a wasted ward. Now, telling that to a pub is BAD, because the pub doesn't have the experience and more importantly team work to make the distinction. But if puppey knows that Dendi doesn't need a mid lane ward, or xboct doesn't need a jungle/river ward, he isn't going to place it for shits.
Take that example and apply it to midas/mek. Of course i want a pub support going for mek. I don't trust the teamwork or the skill for a risky play like midas. For pro teams though, it might be the right choice.
And the jungle wasn't nerfed for every hero. CM still does very well.
jungle is nerfed it means it means it's for everyone
very risky, barely rewarding
i've seen matches when the pro team is dominating and they are going full pressure to go 4 midas and
get punished for it, was very funny (just a note it happens on pro scene not normal pub)
for complete info and explanation when you get it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MkB6RROdIg
Lol ? You don't rush drum. I might snag a fast bracer if there is a lion or lina in lane or something but I never "Rush Drum" lol.
My priorities include, Starting with regen for carry and I, maybe a clarity, Wards/Deward/Cour/Smoke in smoke mixture depending on other supports, if any. I grab the next set of obs before boots, at around 4:30 or whenever they un-CD. Maintain 1-2 Tps/Dewarding/Smoke if another lane is having issues and I need to rotate, etc. Just supporty stuff. Bracer usually comes somewhere in there, however it varies. "Rushing drum" is hardly a term when I play a 4 role and snag it at 15-22, depending on if there are other supports in game for wards, or what not, and depending on how well game is going over all. Boots come somewhere in that mix, usually right after the second set of obs. around the 4-6 min zone.
Pubs make it funny running as an only support. Lel.
Yfay :
While you might think of it as "Oh shit I midas'ed a chen creep. GGNERD" I think of it as, "His mek will be fast as fuck. A tower makes it now. " I would rather invest 300 for the deward, and soon followed smoke gank, rather than to save up 1100 gold, before "Mini Aui_2000" comes to tower after stacking and WW jungling with Wilkins @ 6 min, and he's level 5 with x2 creeps. Rotating early helps usually, and the deward places a more defensive mind on the team considering they have no vision. They opposing team is usually less likely to commit with wards down.
Chen usually guarantees tower loss at 8 minutes which is far before any support can snag a midas if you're actually playing a 4-5 role. While I can see that it might have applications I just don't feel 100% comfortable with that idea.
@ Relentless, thank you : This will most likely be the post I take to heart most and follow by.
I like it just because it makes the game more interesting as a support when you can grab that one or two extra items later on.
In regards to carries getting Midas, you don't need one on Luna (as someone mentioned above); she's an already insanely good farmer, so getting a Midas on her is like getting one on AM. Same goes for other carries that have in-built farming abilities.
When it comes to competitive games, it probably goes without saying that it's a little boring and gets old fast. However it's hard to not buy it considering how good it is. Don't let shitty supports who refuse to buy any support items cloud your views; they would have been just as shitty regardless of whether or not they rushed midas.
depends if cm or not when it comes to pubs i would say its not worth it on average at least where i am in mm because most games end between 20/40minutes
Midas on luna doesn't really make sense as others have said because she doesn't need farm help and is super squishy/needs an early bkb. Other heroes with good escapes like maybe mirana I can see it more.
I don't really like midas on anyone except a few jungle heroes like enchantress, doom, prophet, sometimes naix. It just kinda depends on your team, if you have say a faceless void already going midas in the safe lane and you're a mid mirana or something don't go midas cus you won't have enough team fight at 15 mins if other team pushes you. 1 midas per team is ok, 2 is pushing it, 3 is waaay too much for pubs.
On support only one I really see it on aside from junglers is CM since she doesn't need many items to suceed and then possibly a nuker if they score a first blood like a lion or disruptor.
@ Outworldzilla, I'm not suggesting you buy midas instead of wards. I'm asking if a 4 role support can keep wards and what nots (The support items required to keep the carry safe, dewarding if needed, smoke if asked for, tps for you always, and the carry if asked for, vision in required areas and what not, while maintaining lane presence.... ) If all that is met, should there be a reason I can't buy it? Aside the 15 min mark.
Obviously, if I see a chen + X random pushy hero or some indication of hard lane aggression, I will just abandon the idea as it wont pay off and the risk factor is too clear. If the pushing strat is viable or becomes visible you just dump the midas idea...
It's about keeping support items up, and getting midas before something such as drums on CM or what not. That's the debate I'm having.
Don't think about it in terms of XX:XX time into a game. Think about it in terms of how long it will be until you need X item. The calculus for this is not the same for a support as for a carry. Really getting midas on a support will usually make more sense than getting it on a carry. Carries just tend to get them more because they are far more likely to have gold.
If you want to game to go late, have enough gold after wards, and have not yet reached your level 2 ult... then midas could be a very good investment. I should probably get it more, but I was not thinking about the numbers correctly from a support perspective until a few pros started picking midas up and I wanted to know why.
If a support typically gets 1 or 2 cs per minute midas makes a huge difference. While on a carry that takes 8 to 10 cs per min its only a nice bonus, but not enormous. If you plan to take the major teamfights of the game 10 or 20 min from NOW, now being the time you might buy the midas, then you will break even for the 10 min period and be a full extra item ahead for the 20 min period. If you are a support on a defensive team that wants to win the game around 40, 50, or 60 minutes when your late game carry is really powerful then midas could mean you go into that late game fight as a CM who can bkb ult for a full duration, still be alive, and cast a hex after the enemy carry bkb ends... that is a game winning move.
Just keep in mind Midas is a situational item and the right situation to get it is for turtling. If you need to fight soon to win the game. Midas is going to lose it.
For the record, midas can be just as bad on hard carry heroes.
I always lose when i go midas on Luna. I have come to realize (at least for me) that luna needs too many mid tier items (HoD, BKB, maybe aquila) and the midas ends up making me useless at the end of the mid game. When i should just have a HoD and be using the early domination to stack ancients and already have my BKB, instead I got a midas and am just finishing a HoD. Without that mid game power, he ulti cant be use when it is strongest. just an observation i had...
Sometimes i feel it can suck on alchemist as well, as he could have just powered out a shadow blade and started being involved. What LD will refer to as a "fighting alchemist" but not as much as luna. Same can be said for a lifestealer rushing phase/drums.
Conversly, on Blinkz clinkz, the midas allows you to basically ignore lane farm and just live in the enemy jungle and sustain level/farm.
i don't really suggest it tbh..
why do you still insist to sacrifice early advantage just for midas
i know jungle pulling is nerfed but i rarely seen jungle pulling support even in the featured dotatv
i've seen many team went this strat even Na'Vi and get punished for it
@智子 likes wards
on the contrary mate, if you see chen/enchantress it's time to buy 5 midas,
why say otherwise?
^again it is situational.
If you don't need the mek then it was worth it. You didn't use it for a major fight, so a midas may have been the better choice. There is always risk involved, but that risk can be mitigated through teamwork.
For very advanced players, certain actions that are almost always correct for less skilled players may not be correct for top tier teams (and visa versa). An example is warding. Merlini will tell you that if you don't need to ward a location, then don't do it. Its a wasted ward. Now, telling that to a pub is BAD, because the pub doesn't have the experience and more importantly team work to make the distinction. But if puppey knows that Dendi doesn't need a mid lane ward, or xboct doesn't need a jungle/river ward, he isn't going to place it for shits.
Take that example and apply it to midas/mek. Of course i want a pub support going for mek. I don't trust the teamwork or the skill for a risky play like midas. For pro teams though, it might be the right choice.
And the jungle wasn't nerfed for every hero. CM still does very well.
jungle is nerfed it means it means it's for everyone
very risky, barely rewarding
i've seen matches when the pro team is dominating and they are going full pressure to go 4 midas and
get punished for it, was very funny (just a note it happens on pro scene not normal pub)
for complete info and explanation when you get it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MkB6RROdIg
rushing mek first item on a hard support
wonder why people think that'd be a good idea
almost as bad as rushing a drum
Lol ? You don't rush drum. I might snag a fast bracer if there is a lion or lina in lane or something but I never "Rush Drum" lol.
My priorities include, Starting with regen for carry and I, maybe a clarity, Wards/Deward/Cour/Smoke in smoke mixture depending on other supports, if any. I grab the next set of obs before boots, at around 4:30 or whenever they un-CD. Maintain 1-2 Tps/Dewarding/Smoke if another lane is having issues and I need to rotate, etc. Just supporty stuff. Bracer usually comes somewhere in there, however it varies. "Rushing drum" is hardly a term when I play a 4 role and snag it at 15-22, depending on if there are other supports in game for wards, or what not, and depending on how well game is going over all. Boots come somewhere in that mix, usually right after the second set of obs. around the 4-6 min zone.
Pubs make it funny running as an only support. Lel.
Yfay :
While you might think of it as "Oh shit I midas'ed a chen creep. GGNERD" I think of it as, "His mek will be fast as fuck. A tower makes it now. " I would rather invest 300 for the deward, and soon followed smoke gank, rather than to save up 1100 gold, before "Mini Aui_2000" comes to tower after stacking and WW jungling with Wilkins @ 6 min, and he's level 5 with x2 creeps. Rotating early helps usually, and the deward places a more defensive mind on the team considering they have no vision. They opposing team is usually less likely to commit with wards down.
Chen usually guarantees tower loss at 8 minutes which is far before any support can snag a midas if you're actually playing a 4-5 role. While I can see that it might have applications I just don't feel 100% comfortable with that idea.
@ Relentless, thank you : This will most likely be the post I take to heart most and follow by.
@ Avidity-sama, This is why I like you.
It's simple, first we buy midas, then we kill batman.
@Vfay Jungle is not nerfed for several heroes. Was in fact a buff for furion jungling (though he normally off lanes anyway)
I like it just because it makes the game more interesting as a support when you can grab that one or two extra items later on.
In regards to carries getting Midas, you don't need one on Luna (as someone mentioned above); she's an already insanely good farmer, so getting a Midas on her is like getting one on AM. Same goes for other carries that have in-built farming abilities.
I can't add much more than what has already been said, however I often buy midas on Crystal Maiden now.
http://dotabuff.com/players/22317164/matches?hero=crystal-maiden&game_mode=&match_type=real
When it comes to competitive games, it probably goes without saying that it's a little boring and gets old fast. However it's hard to not buy it considering how good it is. Don't let shitty supports who refuse to buy any support items cloud your views; they would have been just as shitty regardless of whether or not they rushed midas.
teams in pro matches have lost because of it, let alone your average pub game.
this trend needs to go away. fast.
losing a game after you went for midas doesnt mean you lost the game because you went for midas
depends if cm or not when it comes to pubs i would say its not worth it on average at least where i am in mm because most games end between 20/40minutes
Midas on luna doesn't really make sense as others have said because she doesn't need farm help and is super squishy/needs an early bkb. Other heroes with good escapes like maybe mirana I can see it more.
luna can snowball with a midas, but you have to build resistance asap
Rod of Atos is like Hand of Midas, but for transmuting heroes. Worth picking up.
I don't really like midas on anyone except a few jungle heroes like enchantress, doom, prophet, sometimes naix. It just kinda depends on your team, if you have say a faceless void already going midas in the safe lane and you're a mid mirana or something don't go midas cus you won't have enough team fight at 15 mins if other team pushes you. 1 midas per team is ok, 2 is pushing it, 3 is waaay too much for pubs.
On support only one I really see it on aside from junglers is CM since she doesn't need many items to suceed and then possibly a nuker if they score a first blood like a lion or disruptor.