I dont think exort invoker needs to get out of the lane to help. I mean invoker is not really a strong roamer and he needs levels really badly and usually one sunstrike is more than enough to help your team get a kill in another lane.
I mean sampson i play OD a lot, and if you try to gank with OD you are going to have a bad time. OD cant gank for shit and needs lvl and gold, and i see invoker like OD in a way that a hero that its not that good at ganking ( even with coldsnap ) risking exp in a gank that may fail its too much risk.
The " sit on mid, get items, get tower " logic is working for me with OD, and like OD invoker is too valuable to lose time in a probably fail gank.
The same with dragon knight that usually sits on mid and gets the tower really fast. He doesnt really gank.
The "i need to thrown everything to protect a player" logic may work in very high skill braket, but if you do that in normal matchamking you will be compensated with a PA who buys mask of madness first item and speak spanish in chat.
1. You don't play mid heroes much, as far as I can see.
(I play mid heroes more than you play supports so I dont see your logic. I also have a couple of thousand games from dota 1 when I had more time to play)
2. It sounds like you are overreacting every game.
(how is telling you to play dota as a team and not as a individual overreacting)
3. Learn to set the ingame priorities and goals. I do that as well every game.
(the reason why you are having trouble is because you set personal priorities and neglect your team. Using the 'why cant my carry carry me late game what do I do' realistically there is nothing you can do if your carry cannot do their job you will just lose in the end. So while it might not be what is best for YOU it will be best for the team.)
4. I do play supports sometimes, dazzle in my top. I do that when I can rely on my carry.
( 13 games....... see #1)
@Dorkly
again what I said is in a best case scenario yes if everyone is winning their lane there is really no reason to move around BUT his question was what to do when his carry can not carry him end game. The most common reason carries late game is bad is because they are not able to farm well enough under high pressure ( I used the example of the lich WR combo because that is just flat out hell). Going to the rune grabbing a haste and killing someone in one of the lanes is not 'throw everything to protect a player' it is basic teamwork......
What I've learnt from playing Invoker is that you just have to suck it up and gank losing lanes, even if you know it's going to significantly hurt you. It's not just creating space for your team, it raises team morale. If your safe lane Anti-Mage has ten last hits in the first ten minutes because they've been losing their lane, they'll be sad and probably not bother to play their best, because they think they're going to lose anyway. And they'll probably flame you too, which never helps.
I find that whenever there's a raging carry player who thinks he needs all the attention in the world because he's Dendi-skill dragged down by noob teammates, it's better for everyone to just go gank his lane and keep him happy. Or feed down mid out of spite, I do that too sometimes :D
^ pretty much that. Going into pubs expecting your carry to play like a pro gamer like going to Burger King and expecting the best burger of your life. You have to do what you have to to win the game. Ive gone mek/pipe playing bounty hunter because my team was too stubborn to build it and we needed them to win.
>(the reason why you are having trouble is because you set personal priorities and neglect your team. Using the 'why cant my carry carry me late game what do I do' realistically there is nothing you can do if your carry cannot do their job you will just lose in the end. So while it might not be what is best for YOU it will be best for the team.)
Obviously I mean my team, not just myself. You are telling me the same shit and saying that a gank is an ultimate game-winning strategy. Good luck.
I have to agree with Sampson, Everything Tyakos has said is wrong and im guessing he goes quas-exort, farms for crit, then right clicks his enemies to death while only using 3 spells. Plz Tyakos, even tho my overall winrate is shit your invoker stats only show how wrong you are.
Best example: http://dotabuff.com/players/113150805 (A game i played 5mins before this post)
You cant expect you carrys are fine inlane, and going mid without ganking is a waste of a midlane (sunstrike is not enough) and since this is a low-pri match, my whole team was shit(but still trying to win their lanes)
The point is, still going off to gank and try to relieve some of the stress from your hard carrys lane is one of the most important things the 'team' can do. and i quote again "Common pub players mistake. Gank is only worth it if you know you can kill..", Atleast trying to help your carry by ganking is necesarry even if you dont get the kill. From the sounds of it you seem like its entirely upto the carry to win the game and by the team not ganking and helping him its still the carrys fault.
Tyakos yes 56% is low for your top hero, I am 68% on bounty hunter who has alot less pub control AND 98% of my games are pubs. I never smurf and every time I test a new strat and it fails it effects my win rate.(MY bounty hunter should be 75%+ pub win rate if I cut out my test games). Where did I say if you gank you automatically win? I said helping your team will increase your chances of winning which is pretty much common sense.
LPQ does not =/ bad, I have been put into LPQ because mid game I get a call and I have to leave game.(Sometimes I wish I had no responsibilities :P)
this is another game in which you play like a selfish noob who hurts the game more than he helps
I checked your match history and as I could tell from your obvious lack of basic game knowledge you played in the normal bracket(the lowest bracket in the game). I am not the greatest player around but I do have above average game knowledge so you can either ignore the tips I gave you and continue to play in the shit tier or accept that you are not a pro and start improving
>The point is, still going off to gank and try to relieve some of the stress from your hard carrys lane is one of the most important things the 'team' can do. and i quote again "Common pub players mistake. Gank is only worth it if you know you can kill..", Atleast trying to help your carry by ganking is necesarry even if you dont get the kill. From the sounds of it you seem like its entirely upto the carry to win the game and by the team not ganking and helping him its still the carrys fault.
Do you guys even read? To secure carrys farm the 2nd support should rotate, form a trilane, not low-leveled mid, who risks losing his lane/tower/life.
>this is another game in which you play like a selfish noob who hurts the game more than he helps
Another retardish statement from someone who hasn't watched the game. Anyways 23/10/10 is definitely a bad impact isn't it?
>I checked your match history and as I could tell from your obvious lack of basic game knowledge you played in the normal bracket(the lowest bracket in the game). I am not the greatest player around but I do have above average game knowledge so you can either ignore the tips I gave you and continue to play in the shit tier or accept that you are not a pro and start improving
I don't feel like I want respond to this bullshit. I can just say that I have friends I play with.
You can NEVER know you will get a gank. Maybe in the shit tier where people have 0 map awareness but vs good players there are times when they back up when they have a feeling a gank might be coming. Not ganking at all because there is a 10% chance that there could be a ward in the exact spot that you come from or whatever is just retarded. You are the type of player who fights a pudge in the mid lane as invoker and says 'I WON MY LANE WTF GUYS WHY U FEED PUDGE' in reality you feed him runes dont call missing and never leave lane.
You are such a selfish player it is no wonder you play at the lowest tier in the game and your head is so far up your own ass you dont seem to understand it
'not low-leveled mid, who risks losing his lane/tower/life.'
that is one of the worst mindsets bad players can have you are so worried about YOUR lane that completely neglect your WHOLE TEAM.
In a ideal situation everyone on your team wins all their lanes and nobody has to leave and your all just cleave down their towers and walk into their base. This never happens but for some reason you think it does..........
"Do you guys even read? To secure carrys farm the 2nd support should rotate, form a trilane, not low-leveled mid, who risks losing his lane/tower/life."
You seem so sure that your team can cope with themselves while you farm away not helping your team whatsoever. And since we both play in the shit bracket, you obviously cant depend on your supports to rotate and form trilanes every game because theres always someone like you who only plays for themselves.
"Babysitting is not my job. I can sunstrike."
Wow, you can sunstrike. If you actually now how to play invoker you would realise that cold snap is one of the best ganking spells in early game since it only relies on right click damge to proc which is the only thing the carries can do at this point. And no babysitting is NOT your job but GANKING is so stop greedy and help your team once and a while.
IMO it depends on the situation, from my experience playing invoker, if you are dominating your lane and massively outlaning the other mid, you should stay in lane maximise your farm and when you got your core you can take over the game for the next 15 minutes which lets your carry farm easily. For example when im doing well, i can get euls quite quickly and from then i can gank there carry for the next 15 mins without him really being able to go out to farm at all (early euls on voker = sure kill on carries) and from then on they will need to rotate their whole team over. Where your carry has space. You dont really need to gank at earlier levels because your slow as shit and only really have cold snap. If you stay in your mid lane get to 9 get double spirits up you can easily go and rape your safe lane where your carry can proceed to free farm for the next 10 minutes
However, if your losing the mid lane and arent getting much farm out of it then its definitely better to move around and to help out your other lanes.
Now most of your, guys, statements have the assumption that you are playing a pub with noobs. I usually play in a stack of 3-4, on Skype. So most of your arguments are just invalid.
I am talking about taking this hero to his full potential, a proper game, not about playing pubs with noobs. Sometimes the people in pubs actually know what they are doing, then it's perfectly fine for my case. I am not saying to play every hero this way, I do gank a lot with qop/puck... But invoker is different in my opinion.
I dont think exort invoker needs to get out of the lane to help. I mean invoker is not really a strong roamer and he needs levels really badly and usually one sunstrike is more than enough to help your team get a kill in another lane.
I mean sampson i play OD a lot, and if you try to gank with OD you are going to have a bad time. OD cant gank for shit and needs lvl and gold, and i see invoker like OD in a way that a hero that its not that good at ganking ( even with coldsnap ) risking exp in a gank that may fail its too much risk.
The " sit on mid, get items, get tower " logic is working for me with OD, and like OD invoker is too valuable to lose time in a probably fail gank.
The same with dragon knight that usually sits on mid and gets the tower really fast. He doesnt really gank.
The "i need to thrown everything to protect a player" logic may work in very high skill braket, but if you do that in normal matchamking you will be compensated with a PA who buys mask of madness first item and speak spanish in chat.
1. You don't play mid heroes much, as far as I can see.
(I play mid heroes more than you play supports so I dont see your logic. I also have a couple of thousand games from dota 1 when I had more time to play)
2. It sounds like you are overreacting every game.
(how is telling you to play dota as a team and not as a individual overreacting)
3. Learn to set the ingame priorities and goals. I do that as well every game.
(the reason why you are having trouble is because you set personal priorities and neglect your team. Using the 'why cant my carry carry me late game what do I do' realistically there is nothing you can do if your carry cannot do their job you will just lose in the end. So while it might not be what is best for YOU it will be best for the team.)
4. I do play supports sometimes, dazzle in my top. I do that when I can rely on my carry.
( 13 games....... see #1)
@Dorkly
again what I said is in a best case scenario yes if everyone is winning their lane there is really no reason to move around BUT his question was what to do when his carry can not carry him end game. The most common reason carries late game is bad is because they are not able to farm well enough under high pressure ( I used the example of the lich WR combo because that is just flat out hell). Going to the rune grabbing a haste and killing someone in one of the lanes is not 'throw everything to protect a player' it is basic teamwork......
@ Sampson
too long didnt read
What I've learnt from playing Invoker is that you just have to suck it up and gank losing lanes, even if you know it's going to significantly hurt you. It's not just creating space for your team, it raises team morale. If your safe lane Anti-Mage has ten last hits in the first ten minutes because they've been losing their lane, they'll be sad and probably not bother to play their best, because they think they're going to lose anyway. And they'll probably flame you too, which never helps.
I find that whenever there's a raging carry player who thinks he needs all the attention in the world because he's Dendi-skill dragged down by noob teammates, it's better for everyone to just go gank his lane and keep him happy. Or feed down mid out of spite, I do that too sometimes :D
(also, if you can tell that you'll have weak early lanes, just play Quas-Wex Invoker, or better, pick an actual ganker)
^ pretty much that. Going into pubs expecting your carry to play like a pro gamer like going to Burger King and expecting the best burger of your life. You have to do what you have to to win the game. Ive gone mek/pipe playing bounty hunter because my team was too stubborn to build it and we needed them to win.
>(the reason why you are having trouble is because you set personal priorities and neglect your team. Using the 'why cant my carry carry me late game what do I do' realistically there is nothing you can do if your carry cannot do their job you will just lose in the end. So while it might not be what is best for YOU it will be best for the team.)
Obviously I mean my team, not just myself. You are telling me the same shit and saying that a gank is an ultimate game-winning strategy. Good luck.
I have to agree with Sampson, Everything Tyakos has said is wrong and im guessing he goes quas-exort, farms for crit, then right clicks his enemies to death while only using 3 spells. Plz Tyakos, even tho my overall winrate is shit your invoker stats only show how wrong you are.
Best example: http://dotabuff.com/players/113150805 (A game i played 5mins before this post)
You cant expect you carrys are fine inlane, and going mid without ganking is a waste of a midlane (sunstrike is not enough) and since this is a low-pri match, my whole team was shit(but still trying to win their lanes)
>im guessing he goes quas-exort, farms for crit, then right clicks his enemies to death while only using 3 spells.
Guess more.
> your invoker stats
56.7% winrate with invoker on my 1st account is bad? Ok...
> this is a low-pri match, my whole team was shit(but still trying to win their lanes)
Enough said.
The point is, still going off to gank and try to relieve some of the stress from your hard carrys lane is one of the most important things the 'team' can do. and i quote again "Common pub players mistake. Gank is only worth it if you know you can kill..", Atleast trying to help your carry by ganking is necesarry even if you dont get the kill. From the sounds of it you seem like its entirely upto the carry to win the game and by the team not ganking and helping him its still the carrys fault.
And yes that game is a low-pri match, it still proves that you cant depend on your carrys lane and skill to win you the game.
Nuff said.
Tyakos yes 56% is low for your top hero, I am 68% on bounty hunter who has alot less pub control AND 98% of my games are pubs. I never smurf and every time I test a new strat and it fails it effects my win rate.(MY bounty hunter should be 75%+ pub win rate if I cut out my test games). Where did I say if you gank you automatically win? I said helping your team will increase your chances of winning which is pretty much common sense.
LPQ does not =/ bad, I have been put into LPQ because mid game I get a call and I have to leave game.(Sometimes I wish I had no responsibilities :P)
http://dotabuff.com/matches/394376369
this is another game in which you play like a selfish noob who hurts the game more than he helps
I checked your match history and as I could tell from your obvious lack of basic game knowledge you played in the normal bracket(the lowest bracket in the game). I am not the greatest player around but I do have above average game knowledge so you can either ignore the tips I gave you and continue to play in the shit tier or accept that you are not a pro and start improving
>The point is, still going off to gank and try to relieve some of the stress from your hard carrys lane is one of the most important things the 'team' can do. and i quote again "Common pub players mistake. Gank is only worth it if you know you can kill..", Atleast trying to help your carry by ganking is necesarry even if you dont get the kill. From the sounds of it you seem like its entirely upto the carry to win the game and by the team not ganking and helping him its still the carrys fault.
Do you guys even read? To secure carrys farm the 2nd support should rotate, form a trilane, not low-leveled mid, who risks losing his lane/tower/life.
>http://dotabuff.com/matches/394376369
>this is another game in which you play like a selfish noob who hurts the game more than he helps
Another retardish statement from someone who hasn't watched the game. Anyways 23/10/10 is definitely a bad impact isn't it?
>I checked your match history and as I could tell from your obvious lack of basic game knowledge you played in the normal bracket(the lowest bracket in the game). I am not the greatest player around but I do have above average game knowledge so you can either ignore the tips I gave you and continue to play in the shit tier or accept that you are not a pro and start improving
I don't feel like I want respond to this bullshit. I can just say that I have friends I play with.
>Tyakos yes 56% is low for your top hero
Do you know what a sample size and skewness is?
You can NEVER know you will get a gank. Maybe in the shit tier where people have 0 map awareness but vs good players there are times when they back up when they have a feeling a gank might be coming. Not ganking at all because there is a 10% chance that there could be a ward in the exact spot that you come from or whatever is just retarded. You are the type of player who fights a pudge in the mid lane as invoker and says 'I WON MY LANE WTF GUYS WHY U FEED PUDGE' in reality you feed him runes dont call missing and never leave lane.
You are such a selfish player it is no wonder you play at the lowest tier in the game and your head is so far up your own ass you dont seem to understand it
'not low-leveled mid, who risks losing his lane/tower/life.'
that is one of the worst mindsets bad players can have you are so worried about YOUR lane that completely neglect your WHOLE TEAM.
In a ideal situation everyone on your team wins all their lanes and nobody has to leave and your all just cleave down their towers and walk into their base. This never happens but for some reason you think it does..........
'Do you know what a sample size and skewness is?'
you ignored that sample size when it benefited you
'Another retardish statement from someone who hasn't watched the game. Anyways 23/10/10 is definitely a bad impact isn't it?'
YES it is bad impact you stole farm and kills from real carries ignored your role and your team lost for it.
>YES it is bad impact you stole farm and kills from real carries ignored your role and your team lost for it.
I think you need to see a doctor.
>you ignored that sample size when it benefited you
I see, you don't.
Good reading, thank you :)
"Do you guys even read? To secure carrys farm the 2nd support should rotate, form a trilane, not low-leveled mid, who risks losing his lane/tower/life."
You seem so sure that your team can cope with themselves while you farm away not helping your team whatsoever. And since we both play in the shit bracket, you obviously cant depend on your supports to rotate and form trilanes every game because theres always someone like you who only plays for themselves.
"Babysitting is not my job. I can sunstrike."
Wow, you can sunstrike. If you actually now how to play invoker you would realise that cold snap is one of the best ganking spells in early game since it only relies on right click damge to proc which is the only thing the carries can do at this point. And no babysitting is NOT your job but GANKING is so stop greedy and help your team once and a while.
This guy sounds like such a fun person to play with, a raging mid AFK-er who wonders at the end of the game why his team lost :D
how much do you pay/h?
can someone summarize what the big argument here coz as an invoker player i wanna join :D
IMO it depends on the situation, from my experience playing invoker, if you are dominating your lane and massively outlaning the other mid, you should stay in lane maximise your farm and when you got your core you can take over the game for the next 15 minutes which lets your carry farm easily. For example when im doing well, i can get euls quite quickly and from then i can gank there carry for the next 15 mins without him really being able to go out to farm at all (early euls on voker = sure kill on carries) and from then on they will need to rotate their whole team over. Where your carry has space. You dont really need to gank at earlier levels because your slow as shit and only really have cold snap. If you stay in your mid lane get to 9 get double spirits up you can easily go and rape your safe lane where your carry can proceed to free farm for the next 10 minutes
However, if your losing the mid lane and arent getting much farm out of it then its definitely better to move around and to help out your other lanes.
Now most of your, guys, statements have the assumption that you are playing a pub with noobs. I usually play in a stack of 3-4, on Skype. So most of your arguments are just invalid.
Lol, unless the OP also plays in a stack off 3-4 on Skype, YOUR arguments are invalid.
I am talking about taking this hero to his full potential, a proper game, not about playing pubs with noobs. Sometimes the people in pubs actually know what they are doing, then it's perfectly fine for my case. I am not saying to play every hero this way, I do gank a lot with qop/puck... But invoker is different in my opinion.