difference is that baseball players don't buy anything and nobody will miss them if they realize they are bad and leave career.
but many dota players buy stuff and valve will try to keep bad ones in and comfort them so they can buy stuff.
Would be good if, they would separate those who care for fun without any game sense and knowledge without trying to learn anything and improve in this game and those who want some good plays.
There are things that people can learn and which require from players just some interest in improving. But some qualities should be in your character.
Still we deserve to know what is the max elo we can achieve,even if its the lowest , average, or high and even if we never manage to improve it. We just need to know were we stand compared to the best, and thats not a bad thing, knowing the world record and where u stand compared to it makes u put more effort in to it
>Just one last comment on this. Elo is a TERRIBLE way to give players a sense of "progress." Many (most?) people reach a plateau, and their Elo stabilizes. It is simply not mathematically possible for Elo to keep increasing in general for players indefinitely as more and more games are played.
Um, yeah, wow, someone said this? Firstly, the people looking for "progress" are the ones that are new to the game, where, given time there will be a large amount of progress made, as opposed to more experienced players who are looking to see where they stand, progress is still something, but its not the focus. DotA is a game about constant improvements, and the same is there for ELO. Not to mention that unlike wealth, each additional unit, be that 1 point of ELO rating or cutting off 0.01 in your 100m sprint - at least from my understanding, actually has higher value...Your wage going from $11>$12 is better than $35>$36, whereas in DotA or sprinting going from 1500>1501 or 1900>1901 or 9.50>9.49.
Its not about being as good as the pros, its about knowing where you stand, and gives you a bit of drive too. I have a lot of friends that are elite athletes, one of my friends competes in long jump, and I'm quite sure knowing numbers like the world record - and where he stands in comparison to that is important to him, and really drives him to work harder.
Football and things are different, way different. They have awards, they have league statistics, they have trophies and championships, its a sport which has its own fucking system and everything, that isn't to be compared with DotA, which for the majority of gamers is a "single player" game.
I'll be totally honest. Relentless, you are an absolute fuckwit that has their head way too far up their ass. Yes a rating system isn't going to cure cancer and it won't eliminate poverty, but it will definitely improve this game, which whether you like it or not, isn't really a casual game (learning curve/reliance on allies/game length/complexity/skill ceiling). Its an improvement that is needed. I don't consider myself to be anywhere near the pros, but it would be fantastic to see where I actually do stand, and no I won't be disappointed. You just think its there to pad our egos, when it really isn't.
main problem with those 2 idiots fletcher/eric tams is fact they didnt bother to play their own game so they are extremely out of tocuh with dota 2 reality
We don't need ELO... in fact we don't really know what we want... but even a proper skill tier would go a long way to shutting up the whiners.
Fact is that since it had started... there has been no improvement or anything that tried to better show this.
@ Hell raiser I agree. We should be able to have options for both those who want try to win and improve as much as possible and those who just want to play for fun. So far Valve has directed nearly all efforts at serving more casual gamers... probably because there are far more of them. I think this means that those who want to be competitive must look to setting up their own metric since Valve does not think it is important enough to work on it.
@ Ebilbaby I like your attitude. I feel the same way. Knowing what excellence is makes me stretch to try to reach it, even if I know I won't ever be a superstar.
@ Terrible you seem to share the same perspective that the rating will be an incentive to people to perform their best. You make a good point that new players will see progress and experienced ones have different needs....not sure why you decided to randomly deviate from the point and try to insult me...very strange choice
What, if anything can be done to show the dota 2 developers that the their fears of exposing MMR are unfounded? Or if you think many people will quit when they see they are not improving quickly...please explain your perspective as well. We have not heard from anyone supporting that view yet.
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@ signature man...yeah, nothing done for 2 years. Nothing since Gabe said "its crap so we want to hide it" ...nothing since they talked about wanting a better way to "show progress". So it made me wonder...what if they really are hiding it because they fear people will quit when they see a lack of progress?
@Relentless , glad that we agree in general, i just wanted to add something that has to do about the fears of the devs about ppl quiting when they see a lack of progress.
As u said lots of casuals are playing this game, if i was speaking about myself id consider me one of them, a casual player who logs in just to have fun, solo queues, enjoy games, hate some other games for various reasons etc etc,
i wont really care if my elo is stable or wont improve more, i ll still log in to play! It would be a benefit tho to know where im standing for the reasons i mentioned in my previous post. Casuals dont care that much, exactly cuz they are casuals, they are playing for the fun of it and thats it.
Ok, so as a casual player who would like to see stats...what do you think about the possibility of joining a list of players with an independent ranking system? I'm considering making one.
But I'm not certain of the best way to do it yet. I have created a ranking system that does not require everyone to have stats on in hopes that I could make a huge list of players so people could select from the list others near their skill level to try to make teams or just stack up for pub games with people very easily. I have over 40 people on my friends list but even so, most of them are usually offline or afk or in a game already. And so few people (far less than 1%) have made teams...but playing as team is so much better. I think there must be a huge number of people who would like to have a 5 stack or even a team to play with but don't have time, don't want to spend all the effort to find one...what if I could make it easy?
What if you could search for people who are in dota 2 now looking for a game, in your region, within a small range of MMR? Then you could send them friend requests and join up.
Ye i agree that playing as a team is how the game should be played and its more fun this way. Also i dont have any problem in participating in an independent ranking system, i dont hide my stats anyway even if they arent the greatest!
A system that will allow players to stack with players near their rank easily with no much effort would be much welcome from my point of view since i dont have much time to invest in making stacks or even finding players who are willing to thats why im taking the "risk" of solo queueing.
I have a couple of concerns tho and id like to ask a couple of questions. For example lets say u get that stack easily via ur system. How are we going to be sure that its going to work? In general i pick mid heroes/carries, there are also some supports i know how to play and i enjoy playing but not many! So how im going to know that i ll have a stack that will play all the roles required for a team to win and i wont end up with 3 mid heroes in a game and 2 carries?
Im not saying that will happen everytime, and ofc u ll tell me that there are chances of getting a team like that just by solo-queueing via valves system, but for casuals who dont have much time like me if the system fails constantly they ll abandon it and go back to valves 50-50 system
These are the sort of features that would be great with this kind of independent list. I was thinking that you could set a status for your intention when you logged on. You could set it to mid-solo, carry, support, off-lane, jungle, or any/some combination of selections. Then you could invite/be invited too appropriate teams.
That would be awesome. From my gaming experience with Dota1 and Dota2 as a casual i generally lose games not cuz a player has a bad rating or his win/ratio isnt that good, i lose games from the team composition and the roles or the heroes the players pick. So being able to have a stack that will be comfortable with the roles given will lead to a good game at least, if not a win.
I think/hope there are lot of people who would agree. Far more people would turn stats on/want to see stats if they knew that it could really help them. Many average skill players seem to just see it as a way for people to flame and blame them for mistakes. But it could also be a way to not have any far higher skilled players on your team...leading to matching not putting anyone to high above you on the other team also. I think having the ratings visible could help you a lot whether you are among the best or the worst of dota players. But unfortunately Valve does not see it that way.
The only change needed is to make finding a team INGAME more accessible. There should never be a ladder for solo que. There is just no way to accurately gauge the difference between a good support and a great support based on numbers.
@Sampson , i play Dota2 the same way i was playing Dota1. Meaning that i was solo queueing and thats again cuz of my free time. How was i doing that? I was enlisted in a site named Dota-league. It was queueing 10 ppl with a variety of visible ratings and it was listing them in the teams so there was balance rating wise. It was OK i guess since u could withdraw ur queue if u saw that there is a guy among the rest with a super very high rating or super very low, and queue with the next 10. In the end it was ur choice if u ll get queued with them or not.
@Relentless Also i never reached the point that there was no more progress in my rating there, it was going up sometimes faster some slower, i had some downfalls and back up again. It was a nice experience.
Im not claiming that this is the best way or the way to go, but it was a nice solution and u felt like u had some control over the game u picked to participate. Being in a stack with similar players who will pick their roles before game sounds even more appealing to me.
huh?
if somebody's playing better then he wins more games (if he has the same rating)
how's that even supposed to be a problem
Sampson, it would be great to have these sort of features in-game. But Valve has had 2 years to work on them and has not done anything about it...in fact they have issued a number of statements to the effect that they think showing a rating or having a ladder etc would be bad for the community. So I think they have not got it done not just because they think it is not very important, but they actually do not want to do it.
It may be time to just do it ourselves. The method dotabuff tried was quickly blocked by Valve...despite reading a lot of reddit and dev forum and Team Liquid and old dotabuff statements and so on...I am still not sure why they really got into a fight over it. As far as I can tell it will not be possible for Valve to block my method without turning all stats off for everyone involuntarily. Nevertheless it seems wise to try to get some idea of what people think first.
Well, I'd be ok if I'd know where I stand at least.
Now I see absolutely no reason why I should play my best heroes in solo queue games. If I lose the game, the next match where I stack will be easier after all.
კომენტარის დასაწერად გაიარეთ ავტორიზაცია.
Is a sense of progress important to you? What if you don't get significantly better? Can you deal with that?
I was going over a lot of the matching making posts again trying to understand different perspectives and I was struck by a statement by Dev Admin fletcher on why he does not want to show the MMR scores.
Fletcher-
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"Just one last comment on this. Elo is a TERRIBLE way to give players a sense of "progress." Many (most?) people reach a plateau, and their Elo stabilizes. It is simply not mathematically possible for Elo to keep increasing in general for players indefinitely as more and more games are played.
Given this reality, if players used Elo to measure "progress", we would constantly be reminding them that they are NOT making any. That would be really bad."
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Are many dota players expecting that they will quickly improve to become excellent at the game? Are many dota players expecting that eventually, if they played enough, they would become as good as the best players? Would everyone really be disheartened and stop playing if they realized the truth that they will take years to reach their max potential and even then it won't be near the top?
Do people play baseball, football, or basketball this way? Maybe they do as children imagine that one day they will be pro players...but by highschool, and college age when people are learning dota 2...do many still think that maybe they will become stars or are at least excellent? Maybe people this age are still too young to be realistic about their abilities. Best in your group of friends means nothing as does best at your school...best in the city is not much more, best in the country means something but there are still best-in-the-world who will kick your butt. A tiny, tiny handful of people will not reach that point of "wow, no matter what I do I can't beat these guys" until they face best-in-the-world. But its an important life lesson. There is always someone so much better than you (at dota 2 or whatever) they can make you look foolish and there is little to nothing you can do about it.
People need to learn to deal with failure, with inevitable failure because it will happen.
Can you still learn to enjoy life when you understand that you are not the best? Not even close to amazing? Can you learn to be content with who you really are? If you cannot, then even the simple peace and joy of regular existence will be beyond your grasp.