I see you used Shadow Blade and manta style in recent games. Both of these items do not synergize well with Razor's skills.
Razor is all about Static Link, and Eye of the Storm. These are skills that are not very strong at the beginning of a fight and extremely powerful near the end of a fight (ie 8-18 seconds into a fight). So razor needs to get items that make him move quickly, attack quickly...and most of all survive for a long time in a fight.
Itemwise, Aghs Scepter is by far the best choice for a core item on Razor because it gives you the survivabilty Razor needs and is a huge buff to your ult. Once you have Aghs, try to use it to take towers whenever you see the chance. Refresher is a very good choice for late game pushes and teamfights...again once you have it try to use it to take towers and rax whenever you get a chance. Refresher is a higher skill item on Razor. It changes him from a low cd, simple hero into a high cd more complex hero. If you find you are uncertain of when to use it, how best to use it, or find yourself dieing to much...I recommend going for AC and Satanic instead. Both of these are really excellent late game items on Razor and much easier to use correctly. If you got a good link cast Satanic can heal you from nearly dead to full health in a couple seconds on Razor. AC gives you the attack speed you need to take advantage of Link dmg, stacks up the minus armor with your ult, and makes you survive long into the fight to take full advantage of your skills.
During a fight the best thing is to steal damage with link from the carry (because he needs it the most) or the tank (because he might live for the full 8 sec giving you +224 dmg). While you are stealing damage and building up eye of the storm minus armor hits remember to keep attacking. It is very important on Razor to learn to move-attack. This is similar to orb walking and most people do not practice it anywhere near enough. Click to move to keep link in range, then click to attack, click to move, click to attack..etc. You have to do this very quickly to get it right. Razor will be able to do an enormous amount of damage if you can learn to move-attack correctly.
Another cool tip.
Link stays attached to invis units, so if someone carries dust that's an easy kill.
Thanks so much guys -- especially you, relentless, for the detailed response! And Relentless, I will work on my attack walking, as well as give your build a try.
My rationale with shadowblade is that I could link, pop blade, and then get 7 seconds or whatever of free linkage. Is this not a good idea?
Also, I usually pop my ult when i am about to walk into a team fight. Is that the right time? And just to confirm, core build order is....
1. aghs
2. AC
3. satanic
and then once i get the hang of things and die les...
1. aghs
2. refresher
?
Thanks!
Zach
@Mark, orbwalking is using skills that are orb effects, like searing arrows (Clinkz), inpetus (ench), poison attack (Viper), etc, to harass without taking creeps/towers aggro-es
Also Silencers glaives, because u might be familiar with Silencer
try it my way once bottle - phase - oov - drums or point booster - s8y - replace oov with desolator - heart
Bkb is ok on Razor but its not nearly as good as on other carries. Unstable Current is a very strong passive which activates a purge and a nuke with each spell cast on you. Eye of storm and Link both works while you are disabled. Because 3 of your 4 skills work when you are disabled bkb is not the best choice. Heart (as above poster of many names mentioned) and other tanky items are superior on razor.
Shadow blade is not very good on Razor also. First shadow blade will not disguise Razor's position when Eye of the Storm is active. 2nd Shadow blade is best used to cast and run away (which razor does not want to do...he wants to stay and fight a long time) or to sneak in and cast one bit of burst dmg (Razor has no burst dmg). Running while invis is exactly the opposite of how Razor maxes his dps. It is the opposite of attack walking.
Heart and Deso are very good on Razor, but AC and Satanic are even better because they give you even more survivability and damage.
Bottle is also very good on Razor, even if you are not mid and not getting runes early. Razor make excellent use of runes throughout the game and bottling up to get back into a fight quickly is very strong for a hero like Razor that wants to keep fighting in a long fight. Razor is a hero that does very well baiting. You can let him be the one who gets hit first and still win. Put Razor near the front. Take some risks. Make him tanky enough to do it and live. Just be sure to get Link and Eye of the Storm cast before you are stunned if possible. When the fight is close Razor can turn it around in just a couple seconds even when he is almost dead if you got Link and Eye off at the start.
I like to get MJ. It's ok, but not the best thing. MJ synergizes well with Link and Unstable Current. I get it because I like how it looks: more lightening theme.
I think ghost scepter and blade mail is legit if the other team has lot of right clickers. Especially for the agha-refresher build.
Also Razor is strongest mid game.. Try not to prolong the match too long.
Blade mail is a bad choice against right clickers....unless they are very bad. I guess blademail works no matter what against bad players who do not see it and stop hurting themselves.
Ghost scepter does not synergize with any of Razors skills. Building it into Eblade would still not be good for Razor. If you are getting ghost scepter its because you played badly and got behind.
Razor can win games just as easily in the super late game as early game. Minus armor (eye of the storm) scales better into late game than anything else. If you build Razor with real carry items like Butterfly, AC, and Satanic he will out carry most of the typical late game hard carries. With equal items Razor can do far more dps than AM or FVoid or PL or SA or PA...the only ones he does not match up against well are aoe carries like Gryo or Luna or Medusa who can kill everyone at the same time. Razors basic dps is almost as strong as any of these and Eye of the Storm+ Link means that after the first few seconds as it builds up his power is far far greater than the enemy carry.
If you have double eye of the storm with agha.. You will pretty much definitely be the focus of the other team. While ghost itself doesn't synergise with his other skills the 10 secs of guaranteed(with blade mail ofc) double eye of storm/link can be useful. That was my reasoning :)
Also a late game Razor will never farm as fast as a bf-manta am or pl or void for that matter. Against gyro he doesn't even stand a chance without bkb.
Almost all Razor games I have seen, he dominates from 15-40 mins mark.. Then starts going out of focus. Usually because he is built as a tank with the sole intention of supporting the hard carry.
I will try that build though. Your lycan tips were just too awesome.
You are trying to survive when far behind...ok. But getting items that let you survive and increase your dps is better. I think your perception of what razor can and cannot do farmwise and late game is distorted by the fact that you are so likely to be behind farm and levels because of mistakes. Razor cannot farm accidentally like the bfury and image carries...but that does not mean he farms more slowly. He just requires you to not fail at lasthitting.
Razor solo vs Gryo, Razor wins very easily with equal farm. The problem with aoe carries is they kill your whole team while fighting you. Razor has to kill enemies one at a time.
You guys have given me a lot to try; thank you so much! I'm definitely a little overwhelmed by all of the [sometimes conflicting] advice, but I will just give it all a try and see what works best for me. Thanks a lot guys.
Just try the aghs refresher build, u won't regret it, get a hood/pipe first if u are facing some nuker/s
I don't get why Relentless said your item build makes no sense for razor followed by saying, "So razor needs to get items that make him move quickly, attack quickly...and most of all survive for a long time in a fight."
Manta style gives... move speed, attack speed, and hp/manta dodge for survivability. By no means is it a bad item on him.
Manta style does do those things, but its not as much as other options. The main thing is effective hp gain with manta is small.
Manta style is best on carries who get their dmg from agi stats. Razor's dmg comes from skills, timing, and attack speed.
So while manta style is ok on razor, for about the same gold you could get AC and do basically the same dps and have far higher effective hp.
Let's consider level 16 razor with phase, aghs, Manta vs phase, aghs, AC. Eye of the storm will buff up the dmg from everything so its neutral in this consideration.
Manta build 5050 gold
------------------------------------
2269 hp, 16.74 armor, EHP = 6018
dmg = 168 (392 max with link) 1.12 attacks/sec dps without EYE = 188 (439 max with link)
Manta image dmg 2x47...extra dps = 105, total dps without EYE = 293(544 max with link)
AC build 5350 gold
-----------------------------------
2079 hp, 26.6 armor, EHP = 9795
dmg = 142 (366 max with link) 1.29 attacks/sec effective dmg with AC aura = 180 (464 max with link)
total dps without EYE = 232(599 max with link)
AC has a higher max dps than Manta at this point in the game, but it starts a bit lower (no link). However the big deal is 10k EHP with AC vs 6k EHP with manta. Razor needs to survive a long time in the fight to so Link and EYE can do their job. That is why AC is a lot better choice.
Oh, yeah...manta usually has this intangible benefit where for a few seconds enemy supports can't tell which version of you they need to disable. Because of Eye and Link you don't get that confusion effect with Razor.
Razor is also a hero that synergizes well with certain support picks. For example, a Razor/Bane/Naga trilane is very strong in the early game because you can link someone, Bane can sleep them (4 seconds at level 1) and then Naga can net them. 6 seconds of guaranteed link time with level 1 disables on your support.
Manta isnt great for razor, Relentless is right. The movement speed is fine, but you can just pick yasha and leave it be, there is no obligation to upgrade it into sny or manta.
Manta is for atribute based heroes like drow, pl, naga, chaos knight (i like it on chaos knight at least)or those, who have and orb or special passive (am, spectre). And for tiny, since he has tons of base dmg. There are some eceptions though- mostly on the pro scene- where picking a manta is beneficient on "+dmg" reliant heroes- debuffing silence, sieging raxes. But at one point manta is just an item slot that doesnt do that much (gyro for instance- he accumulates a lot of "green" dmg that isnt applied to his illusions, so 5k and an item slot might be a bit too much to handle.)
Just a question guys- does abbadon' shield debuff static link? because i think in alliance match yesterday it debuffed the link out of pa. It that is true, then abbadon might be a hard, hard counter to that hero.
I thought nothing broke link but distance. It even goes through ageis deaths, astral, euls, magic immunity...etc. But everything must be tested. Do you know game time so we can recheck to see what happened?
I watched the vod, unfortunatelly it doesnt debuff static link. I was sure it did, but the -dmg stayed on the pa after the shield poped.
I have 90.48% win with razor (21 game).
I max the plasma field (for farm and damage) and unstable current (for move speed) first ==> with that build i can go in the combat like tank or gank, i go in the combat and move around with high speed and let the eye of the storm finish the enemy (with the support of teammate ofc)
and yeah, Vanguard ==> Aghanim's Scepter ==> Desolator (for gank) or Sange and Yasha (for tank) is the best item build
A vanguard? why? its half efficient on ranged heroes... Its really NOT good on ranged wielders. Imo desolator is a decent item on him, but i wouldnt call it a gank item, considering the time you get it... What is more, do you really need the extra dmg? Razor has good dmg from static link and phase boots, what he lacks is attack speed and tank- so ac would be perfect. A mjolnir might be interesting as well for the ias, and butterfly covers pretty much everything he needs.
What about skadi? Seems LEGIT for an orb on razor.
why vanguard half efficient on ranged heroes ??? never heard about it
i build desolator, i need more damage since i not raise the static link until late game
it not about right or wrong build, its about what you build style, my style is tank and gank (because there is alway 1 or 2 carry in my team in every game).
Watch the last game i play as razor ==> http://dotabuff.com/matches/310849754
watch my item and the KDA, not bad for razor tanker and ganker style, right ?
i forgot you build your link later on... desolator compensates your dmg deficit, so it sounds nice. But the attack speed still remains an issue.
Vanguard is half efficient on ranged -> what i meant is that it blocks only 20 dmg points instead of 40 on melee (the % chance stays the same). Considering the cost and the decreased block-> you build vanguard only for the life/regen- MANY pro razors pick a mekansm over vanguard for the extra tank which also benefits the whole team. So briefly- razor needs some tank items, but vanguard isnt the item one would like to aim for- you can pick a mek or...drums instead.
This effective HP argument is just nonsense, and if anything, only speaks for how situational item picking is (which is obviously true). For starters, the analysis cannot include the benefit of dodging skills and silence with manta. But the worse thing is that it ignores all sources of damage that are not physical: pure, removal, and magical. That 200 hp over AC is an extra 300 damage nuke absorbed.
So I have done some testing and I have figured out the best razor build.
1 iron branch
5 divine rapiers
If I farm right, I can usually get that by the 20 min mark, then it's gg.
Seriously tho, here's where I'm landing for core items:
Phase (into BoT late game)
Drum
S & Y
AC
Heart
Butterfly if the game somehow lasts that long
Thoughts?
one side game prove nothing ==> http://dotabuff.com/matches/311411105
I just see a ton of feeds and i bet my ass that NP not even need to join the combat (that why he is the most farm and just kill 5)
Mech is a much better choice than vanguard if you are playing dota at a high enough level that there really are organized fights and coordination. HHLong, you are winning because of your positioning and in-game decision making not your item and skill build. If you got a good item and skill build your would be doing even better on razor.
@Vandal there are game were blocking magic dmg is more important than physical. But that is not usually true. If you find that you are facing and lineup that looks like: Zues, Lina, OD, Jakiro, SK...then yes get pipe on Razor. IF you are facing tons of magic dmg or a team with no real hard carry then get hp items to tank (after pipe) rather than armor items. Heart is the best choice to tank against OD, for instance.
oh well, just tell us the result after 5 or 10 game, let see how good that build ^__^
btw, just checking "zacholas321" profile, and wow, he sure need a lot of tips for clink, void and timber also (just kidding bro ^__^)
What did you guys think of my core item layout? Bueno? just had a really good game with it, but didn't end up having time to get heart. and it was a 45 min game, which is pretty average. So maybe in the future I will prioritize heart over bfly depending on my death count.
@hhlong - I have no doubt; particularly with clinkz lol. He was who I used to play when I first started. I definitely have a lot of learning and growing ahead of me in dota, that's for sure. Very grateful for your guys' help though, it's making a big difference.
@hhlong Plz dnt be mad bro. That's a high bracket game. More over they had noob clock. We had noob gyro and Ursa. Game was won because of razors domination and good support from jakiro and prophet. 5kills plus 14assists on prophet. Good prophets don't ks from their carry. And he was there in every fight. Watch game before commenting :)
I didn't read the whole thread but as Razor is my fav hero and I have played it a lot. I adjust the build sometimes depending on the situation but mostly I like to have Deso along with my Ulti and Agh'Scepter I take a lot of the armor of my enemies, I too activate my ulti right before u go into team fights, especially if I am playing against silencers (Silencer, DP, Drow.. etc), almost all the time I have Bottle.
I use BM when playing against Huskar to counter him (activating it right before he jumps on me, so it is too late for him and perfect time for me to activate it) so his ulti does damage only to him.
I prefer to activate ulti, then plasma while I am entering the fight, then static link... fight... fight then plasma to catch who is running away and so on. U must practice the plasma field to get a real feel of the range and I do the orb move described above (not most of the time).
U can take a look at my profile if u want to see the builds and etc.
Good Luck with Razor!
@krazy: yeah, i should watch game before say anything, but you know, see the game score and still watch the game (kind of wasting time) ? the score tell me there is a very big difference KDA, gold for the only 28 min game ? see the last game i post, me and my team got 49 kills in 49 min, but you and your team got 42 kills in only 28 min. Sorry but you should say i don't give a shit about normal or high or very high, they all shits when the feeding start from begin to end.
Just had a couple razor games. I'm not a great player, and my first few razor games were months ago when I was new and terrible, but I did ok these last two. I tried sange and yasha and aghs. I like yasha for the movement, sange is decent for hp, but I think just going yasha is best unless you're going ganker. I'm not typically chasing down people so I don't need the sange debuff, since unstable current already slows people chasing me. What's also nice is yasha is really cheap. I do love AC but it's quite expensive to build and doesn't come in great parts- either a huge buy for the hyperstone or smaller buys for items that don't help you farm. I'm going to try it out next time though.
I also really liked bkb against disabler heroes because a stun breaks link. It kind of depends on who you're playing. Like playing luna or jakiro bkb is a pretty obvious choice. Aghs also has a huge benefit of tons of mana. Early I'm always pretty mana starved but with ags I didn't seem to have any issues.
I think manta is a bad choice because nothing razor does buffs illusions. I typically don't go manta unless playing a hero who buffs illusions like AM or spectre with diffusal.
Something mentioned skadi, seems like an awesome choice for 6 slot end game in a longer match. It'll stack with satanic too on ranged.
Hi guys, just wanted to thank you all for the advice. I have created my own build based on your input and have won my past 6 razor games in a row!!
It's crazy how much of a turn-around I've experienced by just changing my items and tweaking my play style very slightly, a la @Relentless' suggestion of attack-walking.
Thanks again!
-Zach
BTW, here's the build I wound up with in case anyone's curious or has feedback...
Starting:
1x tango
4x branch
Early:
Phase
Core:
1. drum
2. s & y
3. assault cuirass
4. heart
5. butterfly
More of an auto-attacky build than an ult-oriented build. Mostly cuz I like chasing peeps with passive max mov speed. XD
კომენტარის დასაწერად გაიარეთ ავტორიზაცია.
...but sometimes I do really well. I feel like my razor performance is very inconsistent and that I am probably not playing him correctly. Any general razor tips that might help me do better?