General DiscussionWhy can't I first pick timbersaw without someone telling me ursa is a...

he indeed is

Wait, he is? How? Ursa's got no stuns, Earthshock barely slows...

I suppose he could be countered in lane early game. Ursa deals a fuckton more right click damage than Timber, especially with Fury Swipes, and by the time Chakram and stuff comes up, Ursa's got his R for those just in case scenarios, and this is completely disregarding any supports helping either one.

But he is

All timber mains can relate

i had a slarder who kept saying i was countered because they ran a trilane with ursa againts me, wow, if only i picked a different hero that wasnt countered by that trilane? still kicked ass in that game tho because... timber isnt fucking countered by ursa. and my 2 recent timber games i had supports with me bot to help win the lane, it really isn't that hard. I first pick timbersaw every game i play him and unless ursa is banned someones gonna pick ursa, no real surprise on my part.

According to dotabuff, ursa is in top 10 heroes timber is in general bad against. I mean, sure experienced timber players will play around ursa, but there's no denying that timber is bad against ursa in general so he was right to point that out.

No I can deny that timbersaw is bad against ursa because I know for a fact he isn't bad against ursa. I play against ursa every god damn game as timbersaw. It really isn't hard to play around that hero.

It's called a fucking duel lane, either they commit a trilane for a fucking ursa or you can just wreck them with a jakiro/lion/cm.

I go 1-2-1 depending on the lane, or sometimes I'll just get 0-2-2 but I'm really leaning off that now because having the extra damage is way more useful unless I'm mid or I'm against slark or some shit.

ursa is the hardest counter

Ursa doesn't counter timber, in order to counter timber you need to do pure/magic damage to him. right click will just stack his armor more. Silveredge is a counter but it only lasts 3 seconds.

i wouldnt say hes the top1 counter cz there are couple of more fucked up heroes, but ursa sure is in the top5 worst heroes to play against, assuming u both are somehow decent. it applies both to laning and later stages of the game. in the ultra lstegame tho u are normally okay.

You have 55% win rate vs ursa playing timber. That is lower than your overall timber winrate which is 57%
You must be stupid if you deny that ursa is an easy counter pick to timbersaw, late game ursa with basher will shit on you. I wonder what is your winrate against ursa that has blink and basher, idk if this can be looked up

i wouldnt say hes the top1 counter cz there are couple of more fucked up heroes, but ursa sure is in the top5 worst heroes to play against, assuming u both are somehow decent. it applies both to laning and later stages of the game. in the ultra lstegame tho u are normally okay.

Ya know I'm trying to think of a hero I hate playing against more but I really can't. Who would you say is #1?

I don't play Timber but OD seems to shred that hero at all points in the game.

im pretty sure it's because enrage makes timber unable to burst ursa down, and if timber get's locked ursa can explode him

@BND

you're actually retarded. I have no words for what you just said, blink basher is not a specific counter for timberaw, and it relies on fucking him getting a bash before I timberchain away, even then I wont instantly die unless I'm being 5 man, and yes i just played against a ursa with basher not too long ago and I won.

The only way I see ursa being a counter is by him doing a fuck ton of damage, OD might be a counter in that case too.

But an actual counter is someone who keeps him from doing his job, which is dealing damage and being a nuisance. Kotl, skywrath, silencer (silencer core that is)
If there's 2 heroes I think counters timber the most it's skywrath and kotl. I dread playing against kotl as timbersaw more than I do ursa. Ursa does one thing, counters him in the laning phase UNLESS you have backup, which is smart to do against ursa, its not fucking rocket science.

And btw that percentage is the most retarded shit you could bring up, it's still 5 percent higher than 50 percent against an apparently hard counter to timber, I might have a fucking 48 percent winrate against a hero that isn't even a counter, does that mean that hero fucking counters timbersaw?

if OD is first 1 think BSs is second

OD is not the number one counter to timber by any means, bloodseeker maybe, but that hero is just utter trash. And timber can easily deal with enrage, assuming ursa pops it when his hp is low with chakram, if he just instantly turns it on to fight timber that timber better have like 500 hp.

Actual counter is someone who keeps him away from doing his job. Not someone who kills him in 2 seconds. 😁😂

can u get close to the creepwave in laning stage anyway? pretty sure u cant even get xp if ursa has a disabler/slower sup with him in lane

not dying = not being countered?

ursa fucks timber up in lane
later with basher i guess

OP already admits the only way ursa counters is in lane.

let's keep this discussion civil

does basher counter timber or not? that's the question

cause ursa is the best

for timber

AM make timber a creep with armor in lane. I think AM is more counter to timber. Goodluck hitting those spells

ursa hard counters timber wherever the timber goes (off or mid) and timber really falls off hard if he gets a bad laning phase

am deals dmg to timber until timber is out of mana then timber should just mindlessly rightclick that am

am vs timber lane is actually really easy because u can just go 0-2-3 or some shit, you tank the mana burn really well and u just pull aggro while u punch him, this way u deny him a lot of farm

or u can do really cheesy shit where u just backdoor that guy and tale hia tower, he'll have to tank 1000000000000 damage from creeps assuming you didnt let him farm his ring of health

AM kinda counters timber later because aside from the fact there's no chance in hell timber kills him, timber will also have a sizable mana pool (though his focus is more on regen than pool, but yeah), making him a good mana void target, in lane it's pretty much the case where timber will just regen like crazy, may not have too much mana, but unless AM has shaman and lion as supports (which would be weird anyways), there's just no way you're dying or being unable to farm. Ursa + any support with a slow or hard disable can kill you in many cases if you aren't careful or you've previously pushed the lane too close to the enemy tower so your retreat can easily be cut off.

Level 2 AM with level 2 shaman isn't scary at all, you can just tank that shit up and continue farming, on the other hand, level 2 ursa and level 2 shaman are gonna wreck your shit even if you are level 4.

"Actual counter is someone who keeps him away from doing his job. Not someone who kills him in 2 seconds."
Except nobody kills this hero in 2 seconds if he builds the right items.

"does basher counter timber or not? that's the question"
Does being bashed not counter every hero, what hero ENJOYS being bashed?

"ursa fucks timber up in lane
later with basher i guess"

Lane support in your offlane, not a brand new concept
And ghost scepter, a pretty great item for timbersaw in a lot of cases

"AM kinda counters timber later because aside from the fact there's no chance in hell timber kills him"
Are you really going to underestimate how much pure damage timbersaw can do with double chakram?

And guys maxing armor is pretty much the most useless shit unless they have a constant support in lane, which rarely is the case.

ops a moron

Are you really going to underestimate how much pure damage timbersaw can do with double chakram?

He can't do <AM's HP Pool> damage unless AM is incredibly underleveled/underfarmed and itemized badly against timber. And he has about a 4 second window to do this, since he has no lockdown for antimage whatsoever. Luckly, supports with disables exist, and so does a sheepstick/atos/etc so it's possible to turn this matchup in your favor as timber either if you build items to hold AM in place, and only jump him after he'd already commited his manta/blink or have someone else on your team do it, I am aware teamplay is not a foreign concept to higher levels of dota.

For the most part of the game timbersaw has the upperhand against am, and if you're not building atos on him you're doing something wrong.

And thanks for the necessary statements 4k

Rofl, just take a player who isn't 5k and who doesn't excell at playing Timber and put him against a similarly skilled Ursa. See what happens and stop looking at everything through your perspective, what if's and what not's.

For the most part of the game timbersaw has the upperhand against am, and if you're not building atos on him you're doing something wrong.

Well, I can't disagree with this. If AM and Timber are hitting their timings equally well, then AM cannot do much to timber because AM goes for a farming item, where timber does as well, he just farms heroes instead. AM's manta timing comes much later than timber's bloodstone, and by the time timber had bloodstone and is starting to build atos, there's literally nothing AM can do to timber.

Even when AM only has manta, timber can clear his illusions in 2 secs of chakram and one whirling, pretty much.

The difference comes like really lategame when AM has an abyssal and you have a huge mana pool, sure you might have a linkens, lotus or BKB some games in this scenario, but linkens can be popped, BKB won't last forever, and by the time BKB's duration is off he can either jump you to take your mana and explode you, or just make it impossible for you to retreat since you have no mana, or you're just going to use up your mana in first place and he'll unexpectedly jump you of all people.

But this is much down to the skill of both players/team composition/what your itemization has to be like in general, so it's not very easy to say it's just am vs timber. I guess there are too many variables to say am>timber or timber>am late game without considering the rest of the draft and their itemization.

You're actually retarded

But how does ursa counter timber? Is it just cus he can lane effectively against him as opposed to other melee heroes who get bullied out of lane by timber?

Ursa is a counter to timber because of his extremely High Damage output that eats through his Armour. Its like OD Conutering AM. Ursa can attack 1-2 times before chain goes off and if your slow sometimes even 3. With one pre stack that's a kill on a timber early game. Once he gets abyssal The damage output by ursa on an abyssaled timber is monsterous. Now Timber is technically a great counter to ursa because his Chakram does extremely well at Controlling Ursa. But if timber is the ONLY tank on the team then Ursa slightly counters Timber. Id say Timber > URSA in Lane. Ursa = Timber Mid game. and Ursa > Timber Late game. Unless of course you itemize specifically to kill ursa For example. Ghost/Ethreal, Shivas/Rod Of Atos, BloodStone, BoT, Linkens/Lotus, Aghs.

https://www.dotabuff.com/players/194801221/matches?hero=timbersaw&opponent_hero=anti-mage

Timber vs am is easyyy. Just gotta follow the scootz timber build (3-1-3-1-3-4-3-2-2 then either max 1 or 2. You only ever get a point in chain earlier if ur against ursa and sometimes slark/tusk/shaker)

@[Lk].Zano

@rpq
Yeah everything about that is true except you're forgetting that I'm not the hard carry in this scenario and I probably won't be the main focus of am, unless I somehow am the only carry on the team.

I feel like going to 3 points in armor is extremely overkill, there's no way AM can do anythign to you even with just 2 levels of armor.

I go for max armor cuz of my play style. I dive a lot and usually cut the lane like axe which means I get harassed by the supports a good amount.

Yeah everything about that is true except you're forgetting that I'm not the hard carry in this scenario and I probably won't be the main focus of am, unless I somehow am the only carry on the team.

Well, yeah, that's true, abyssal is probably going to be applied to their carry or if AM jumps the backline to kill dazzle/oracle/ww or some other annoying save shit, so you're probably going to be able to dish out damage in the meantime.

It is also not your job as an offlaner to wreck their hard carry 35+ minutes into the game, unless you picked Axe or Legion or some other anti-carry.

What retards r u playing agianst

@op do u never go 3 points in armor?

how do u play offlane timbersaw then

idk by not being a scrub

Any hero that builds Solar Crest or any team that decides to build one counters Timber tho, well not really hard but you know what I mean, and I don't really believe in hero counters because it really depends on the players and also this is a 5 v 5 team game.

What if you played Timber and lets say you have an enemy Ursa that majority of people says the counter for Timber but your teammates decided to build Solar Crest, Heavens Halberd or Hex, etc. so you are not really countered anymore.

It really depends on the situations and teammates in-game to decide how things will go, everything that is written on this thread including this will only be good on paper and there would be a huge difference in-game.

So ursa counters you enough to force you to go items u don't want to go like ghost? I imagine kotl forces u to go shit like lotus ?

I'd build those items regardless? Neither of those items are shit

Timber is a hero who almost literally doesn't right click (can't right click with ult even), having a ghost scepter handy in case he's focused by physical damage lategame is a fucking no-brainer.

And no, solar crest doesn't counter timber, sure, reducing 10 off his 30 bonus armor might sound nice but it's more effective to buy a fucking dagon than solar crest vs him. Don't get me wrong, every team should have a solar crest most games (or even two), but timber is one of the top 5 heroes it's shit against.

Shiva and lotus are common pickups on timber too, so reducing his armor makes no fucking sense since it's still a fuckton of armor. I mean, sure, if you are running a -armor strat you'll go for -armor builds no matter what, but it just isn't effective against timber, unless you catch him after buyback or TP from base when he has no stacks of reactive armor.

Minus armor doesn't counter +armor, it's the other way around. That's why sven and dk are good picks against slardar or in general -armor lineups.