General Discussion

General DiscussionA mechanical question about Dota 2. Please answer if you are a mechan...

A mechanical question about Dota 2. Please answer if you are a mechanical player. in General Discussion
JULES THE DOTA ENJOYER

    I was reading the mechanics of damage block here,

    https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Damage_block

    And I stumbled upon this line,

    "When damage block triggers, it blocks damage before other damage reducing effects do. This means that the higher the unit's armor is, the less effective damage block gets."

    Can somebody explain to me how exactly this is so?

    Because from my point of view, the higher the armor is, coupled with damage block, then the more damage gets blocked, right?

    Like,

    15 armor + 70 damage block (from Vanguard) is obviously better than, say,

    8 armor + 70 damage block (from Vanguard). Right?

    That's the obvious result from my perspective and yet, gamepedia says otherwise.

    So, why exactly does damage block become less effective the more armor a hero has?

    TokyoTokyo

      in some point i also misunderstood that, but it only refers to damage block not as item. it refers to the gold value over what is intended to offer but that statement is only referring to "DAMAGE BLOCK" .... if you have high armor, you will take less physical damage, thus reducing the effectiveness of Vanguard (2150 Gold). Any final damage that you are taking lower than 70 damage is consider less effective. on this aspect, particularly in "DAMAGE BLOCK" Platemail 1400 gold is more effective, its always apply to final damage calculation, unlike vanguard which by "50% chances".

      Vanguard is only better at blocking up to around 180 damage, which spikes at mid-late game, so if rushed Vanguard is still better overall. Item cost goes mostly into HP an HP regen, Bonus +250 Health, +5.5 Health regeneration.

      So less effective as per damage block... but the item overall is extremely useful, in terms of HP and Regen.... late game can be upgrade to Crimson or Abyssal.

      3k enjoyer

        Now I fully understand why vanguard doesnt apply to tidehunter.

        JULES THE DOTA ENJOYER

          I think I got the answer guys.

          Say for example I'm about to receive 150 damage.

          Without armor but with damage block this equals to, (150-70)x1.0=80 damage.

          If my armor reduces damage by 50%, I will take 150x0.5=75 damage.
          But with damage block I will take (150-70)x0.5=40 damage. Effectively only blocking 40 dmg which is 35 less than the 75 dmg I would have prevented without damage block.

          Now I think this is bad because of 2 reasons. Following the example above.

          1. The damage block effectively blocks 35 damage only, and I say effective block because I'm not referring to the 70 dmg it naturally blocks but the overall reduction of the 150 dmg received in relation to my armor, which should be preventing 75 dmg but because damage block is there, armor is now only preventing 40.

          2. The armor is now preventing a much lower amount of damage compared to when damage block is not considered.

          So in summary, I guess these 2 reasons are what makes damage block effective when a unit has high armor.

          Am I right? Any thoughts on this?

          Cireo

            > So in summary, I guess these 2 reasons are what makes damage block *less* effective when a unit has high armor.

            Yes, this is what they were trying to convey. Damage block doesn't doesn't reduce the final damage taken as much for high armor units.

            However it is important to note that the damage per instance is the most important factor. If you are attacked by 50 spiders doing 60 damage, you would much rather have a crimson guard active and take 0% damage than 40 armor and take 33%.

            Saya Tidak Takut, Hadapi ...

              That's why in some 6 slotted "tank turned carry" role, they sell vanguard completely to buy assault cuirass,

              TokyoTokyo

                yeah. AC is good, but i prefer Shivas and then upgrade vanguard to crimson for my team. if you are Sven, DK, Alche, Slardar etc... AC works bigtime.

                Saya Tidak Takut, Hadapi ...

                  AC is for right clickers like sven, DK, slardar, bara, Shivas is for tanky casters, or to make casters a lot tankier, like pango, storm spirit, zeus, timbersaw,

                  point is all late game item is armor based, not damage block anymore

                  Väinämöinen

                    hello im robot, very mechincal player, beep, kys, beep

                    Kotato

                      i am glad that children that were skipping mathematics in school finally learn it here at least

                      კომენტარი შეიცვალა
                      Luxon

                        It's poorly worded IMO. Wrong thinking to convert everything into percentages and talk about effectiveness from there.

                        Even then, the percentage by which vanguard reduces damage is entirely based on the enemy's damage. If you are getting hit with 100 damage you will be reducing it by 70% each block doesnt matter how much armor you have.

                        AnŦaiN

                          Im quite a narrow thing viewer . Lets take 100 dmg FROM SINGLE UNIT . By vanguard's block it becomes 30 dmg . Now get 60% dmg reduction due to the armor of the hero makes the dmg 15 (FINAL) . However if the guy only had 60% armor and no vanguard , the dmg will become 40 (FINAL ) . So it reduces the efficiency of armor , but the overall result of having both things is better .

                          Another thing , armor is good for lets say against pa . when PA deals 1000 dmg , 60% armor reduction makes its 400 dmg (FINAL) . while having only vanguard's block will make it 930 (FINAL) . So keep this in mind . Also as said above , against multiple attacks (say 10 units of 50 dmg ) , having vanguard is better as we will get NO dmg , while having 60% armor reduction will make us get 20 dmg from each unit . This is quite basic though nothing too deep , i noticed it quite some years ago .